Fixtures Pile Up......in January

[Veteran]

I have had a quick look at the scheduled fixtures for the coming months and it is very difficult to see how the county board are going to fit in championship matches at any grade.

I am fairly sure that the football and hurling are now divided into groups of 6 (certainly at senior and possibly intermediate) with 4 teams progressing from each. The NFL and NHL games are fixed, as is the U-21 championship (in which we have an excellent draw - it looks like we could play all games including the final in Tullamore). These take us right up to the Championship and we all know what happens to games then.

So where does this leave us? More club games in less time. If last year is anything to go by then we are in major trouble. Is it now time to look into the knock-out system again - placing a greater emphasis on the league? I know that the champinoship/league debate has been exhausted before but we definitely need an alternative to the current situation.

[Lone Shark]

I've said before that I think this solution is the worst of both worlds. Essentially it's a knee jerk reaction to Tullamore winning the championship without winning a group game, as the fear is that the group games would become no more meaningful than league matches.

However they've still tried to retain the "safety net" aspect by letting four teams through, which means that the games will mean a lot to some clubs, and by the end, not much to some others. Some club is going to get eliminated after a rival of theirs picks up an easy win over a strong club who has rested players, and then all of a sudden people will be giving out over this new system too.

As to your point about fixtures pile up, you're right on that score too. Last year all of our county teams with the exception of the minor footballers went out at the first possible hurdle, and even then there was huge stress on dual clubs and county players had little or no time to integrate back into their clubs before the championship hit full steam. I don't think the under 21 football will be a huge issue in that even the Leinster final will be done by early April, but I really hope that the solution won't be wedging in rounds here and there so as to "get it run off". I don't go into a restaurant and order and nice steak and then wolf it down as quick as possible in between phone calls in order to "get it eaten" - it's something enjoyable, so I give it the attention it deserves. Our county board will have to think along similar lines and I've a sneaking suspicion we're looking at Hobson's choice here - either county players being released five or six days before championship rounds are fixed, or else hurling and football on the same weekend.

I don't like either prospect to be honest.

[theman]

When is the club league staring and are fixtures out yet?

[Plain of the Herbs]

From a practical point of view, the footballers finish their regular league campaign on April 11th while the hurlers finish theirs a week later on April 18th. I think it’s fair to say the hurlers won’t reach the final while the footballers will hardly reach the final of their division, though it’s possible they could.

The footballers play Meath on May 23rd with the hurlers playing Antrim a week later on May 30th. The minor hurlers play on May 1st and also on May 15th if they lose to Wexford on the 1st. The minor footballers play Longford on April 17th and would also play on the following week (24th) if they lose that, and also play on May 8th if they progress on the 24th. (All these dates are on the Leinster Council’s site by the way.)

That means there are four weeks which are free of senior county activity, being April 25th and May 2nd, 9th & 16th. I wonder how many weeks will they keep for club activity? The 16th will certainly be kept free, but what about the 9th? It’s possible.

At a guess, you could be looking at two rounds of both club football and club hurling in the three weekends of April 25th, May 2nd & May 9th, with there being a double up of codes on one of those weekends.

That could be worsened if either county team are going training in Spain during this time as the hurlers did last year. Why is it that this is labelled a ‘warm-weather training trip’ before the event but is called a ‘team holiday’ in the County Board’s accounts?

As well, some clubs can tailor their approach once the fixtures are known depending on whether the ‘must-win’ fixtures are loaded towards the start or end of the group stage.

When you look at the above schedule, the system which applied to the hurling championship last year holds much more appeal, with the emphasis on the knock-out stages in August & September when players can concentrate fully on the club scene.

I have had a quick look at the scheduled fixtures for the coming months and it is very difficult to see how the county board are going to fit in championship matches at any grade.

I am fairly sure that the football and hurling are now divided into groups of 6 (certainly at senior and possibly intermediate) with 4 teams progressing from each. The NFL and NHL games are fixed, as is the U-21 championship (in which we have an excellent draw - it looks like we could play all games including the final in Tullamore). These take us right up to the Championship and we all know what happens to games then.

So where does this leave us? More club games in less time. If last year is anything to go by then we are in major trouble. Is it now time to look into the knock-out system again - placing a greater emphasis on the league? I know that the champinoship/league debate has been exhausted before but we definitely need an alternative to the current situation.

[Bord na Mona man]

I think the county should invest in a couple of decent floodlit, artificial grass, all weather venues.
That would give a little more lee-way for getting more games played in Spring and Autumn when daylight and pitch conditions are an issue. It would also prise open a window for regular midweek club matches.

Realistically clubs with a lot of dual players are going to need to play more games midweek.

[Lone Shark]

I think the county should invest in a couple of decent floodlit, artificial grass, all weather venues.
That would give a little more lee-way for getting more games played in Spring and Autumn when daylight and pitch conditions are an issue. It would also prise open a window for regular midweek club matches.

Realistically clubs with a lot of dual players are going to need to play more games midweek.

Not meaning to engage in a little thread hi-jacking, but you've touched on another subject there too - the absence of a proper training facility owned by the county board. As anyone who has ever been involved in training underage teams etc. will tell you, locating facilities for the training and matches of U-14, U-15, U-16 and minor training and matches is not always easy, and is often very difficult indeed. Two venues might be asking a bit much, but in an ideal world, one going towards South Offaly and one going towards North Offaly capable of covering both sports but primarily geared towards hurling and football respectively would be a huge asset.

One things for sure - chances are the land would be easily enough acquired at the moment.

[kinnittyman]

LS,
18 months ago the clubs in Offaly were given the following choices as what to do with E250,000 that was coming the county boards way from the opening up of Croke Park

1) Put it towards the development and running of OCP

2) Clubs could propose some projects they had in the pipeline and the top ten would get E25,000 each

3) The money could be put into a fund going towards the purchase of land for county training facilities etc.

Choice 3 was voted for and to the best of my knowledge some land around Killoughey (Dont hold me to that) has been earmarked for the development.

[Lone Shark]

LS,
18 months ago the clubs in Offaly were given the following choices as what to do with E250,000 that was coming the county boards way from the opening up of Croke Park

1) Put it towards the development and running of OCP

2) Clubs could propose some projects they had in the pipeline and the top ten would get E25,000 each

3) The money could be put into a fund going towards the purchase of land for county training facilities etc.

Choice 3 was voted for and to the best of my knowledge some land around Killoughey (Dont hold me to that) has been earmarked for the development.

I'm delighted if that happened. I remember the announcement all right, but I can't recall a decision being made. I hope the land hasn't been bought at the rates from 18 months ago though!

[GreatDayForTheParish]

Sweet Jebus, such confusion and unhappiness over what format the club champioships should take. Evidently the County Board is damned no matter what it does as everybody seems to want something different without being exactly sure what that is. The debate surrounding the format for Championships 2009 and 2010 was covered here:viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3453 and here viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3512&start=15. Instead I think it may be helpful to briefly sumarise the various formats used over the years and how none provide the ideal solution.

Straight knock out format: Utterly useless, outdated relic of the past that provides too few games for supporters and players alike. But hey it's 'run off' good and quick....

The 'pre-2009' format of three groups of four teams: Deemed by many to again provide too few games whereby a team could loose their first two group games in early May and thus have their season ended.

The 2009 format: Plenty of games for players and supporters but of the wrong kind in that the group games were shown to be utterly meaningless by Tullamore's ultimate Championship victory.

The 2010 format: A logical amendment to the 2009 format thus providing some meaning to the group games while at the same time ensuring that all teams play at least five important games. Similar format to that used in the NFL, AFL, Guinness Premiership and the Top 14 in France. Concerns however about a fixtures backlog. Nontheless it was the right decision by the County Board and it at the very least deserves to be tried before disaster is declared.

I think the county should invest in a couple of decent floodlit, artificial grass, all weather venues.

That would give a little more lee-way for getting more games played in Spring and Autumn when daylight and pitch conditions are an issue. It would also prise open a window for regular midweek club matches.

Realistically clubs with a lot of dual players are going to need to play more games midweek.

Now that is something that deserves a thread of it's own and something I have often thought about. Offaly is sadly lacking in facilities of this type, shamefully so when one considers that many clubs around the country have provided these facilities for themselves never mind counties. Whatever about multi-million 'centres of excellence' surely a couple of all weather pitches and associated dressing rooms could be provided for a reasonable cost? Improvement in this regard is crucial if we are to ever bring Gaelic Games in Offaly to a new level.

[Lone Shark]

The 'pre-2009' format of three groups of four teams: Deemed by many to again provide too few games whereby a team could loose their first two group games in early May and thus have their season ended.

The 2009 format: Plenty of games for players and supporters but of the wrong kind in that the group games were shown to be utterly meaningless by Tullamore's ultimate Championship victory.

The "pre-2009" format might not have enough games for some, but it still was reasonably on the ball - the most commonly felt problem was the fact that it was spread all across the year. Most players would have been very happy with the way it worked in the football this season, notwithstanding the dual players issue, because the important games were played on high summer weekends with reasonable continuity.

I agree that teams should not be eliminated by May, but I don't share the view that everyone who has lost two games should still be in. The reason championship is such enthralling viewing is that losing is either a severe or else a fatal blow to a team's chances. Anybody trying to create a system whereby we get plenty of "Championship" football and hurling but teams can still lose three or more times and stay in is on to a loser. Tullamore lost three times this year and the system has essentially been changed to ensure that never happens again. I don't blame Tullamore, they played the system that was there and they were dead right to do so, but their success guaranteed that in a similar format, the round robin games would have been treated like league matches by many if not all clubs and thus this action was taken.

Also, more than in any other sport, teams who don't need to win tend not to win. The intensity brought to the table by a team needing a win to stay alive is difficult to overcome at the best of times, never mind when you have nothing to play for yourself. This new system guarantees a good few such games by essentially creating a top four out of six, with little or no advantage for moving up that top four. Copying the Westmeath system would have been so much easier and that slight change would have made a world of difference. Right now I can guarantee you that some club will be eliminated when their rival picks up two handy end of season points against Birr/KK/Rhode/Clara and then suddenly there will be loads of focus on this issue.

Also, we can't keep ignoring the elephant in the room - the dual county thing. All these other counties trying different formats usually aren't dealing with this. For God's sake last year we mimicked Kilkenny, who get their football done and dusted by May. Realistically, the other counties where both sports are treated with reasonable seriousness are Galway, Limerick, Dublin, Cork, Antrim, and at a push, Wexford and Clare. Dublin has huge populations and with a few exceptions, there is an official policy of discouraging dual players. The county won't allow it from U-17 on, and many clubs do the same. Cork and Galway have completely different areas with little or no overlap, with the exception of a few Cork City lads, while Wexford and Clare both make it clear that football comes second and as a result the football only clubs dominate the big ball code. It's not two separate areas as neatly but it might as well be.

That leaves us with Limerick and Antrim. Limerick operate a straight knockout with a backdoor, meaning that if you lose round one or else win round one and lose round two, you get one second chance. That's it. You cannot lose twice and win, while the four quarter finalists who come in the "front door" don't even get to lose once. Antrim is more old school still - straight knockout, no backdoor, no messing.

We are the only county attempting to properly keep two codes alive while still toying with these different formats that have loads of games. That's before we factor in that county hurling teams can affect club football fixtures and vice versa. Until we make a decision as a county that either we're going to encourage dual players or feck it and say it's one or the other, then we're always going to be at nothing.

[TheManFromFerbane]

I've said it before but I'll say it one more time. All a player and manager wants is to be able to plan their training to gear themselves up to be at their best for Championship games and to do that the only way is to know when you are going to be out. The county board did sterling work last year in creating a master fixture list that in the main was kept to. A few minor tweaks to accommodate dual players and we would have had the best system available. I don't like the look of this new system but I'll wait and see how well they can plan out the season before it starts.

Pre-2009 was nothing but an absolute f*cking disaster. Getting told 6 days before a game that you're out is a joke. Players were p*ssed off, no one was able to plan holidays, you were faced with constant "we have to be ready lads we could be called on next weekend" over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

Last year was 90% right, so I'll hold my tongue to see if this is an improvement or disimprovement.

[GreatDayForTheParish]

I agree that teams should not be eliminated by May, but I don't share the view that everyone who has lost two games should still be in. The reason championship is such enthralling viewing is that losing is either a severe or else a fatal blow to a team's chances. Anybody trying to create a system whereby we get plenty of "Championship" football and hurling but teams can still lose three or more times and stay in is on to a loser.

Maybe I'm alone on this issue but I just can't reconcile myself with this viewpoint. To my lasting frustration this archaic mindset seems to permeate throughout the GAA; that any sort of league/round robin format somehow takes away from a Championship. This attidute is remarkable in that it appears to be unique to the GAA, I can think of no other mainstream amatuer (never mind professional) sport that detests the league format so much.

When one considers the complaints levelled at the use of round robin formats in the GAA, it is all the more remarkable that both amatuer soccer and rugby are able to operate 9 month leagues (along with ancillary Cup/knock out competitions) with: 1:games played week in week out without cries of burnout, 2: the eventual winners being deemed worthy campions depsite having lost more than two (shock, horror will somebody please think of the children!) games and 3: the league maintaining it's integrity despite the existence of numerous games where only team has something to play for.

My main problem with straight knock out and indeed the 'pre-2009' format is a lack of games. Under these systems the most that any player or supporter from one of the less successful clubs can hope for is two or perhaps three meaningful games every year. Imagine, two or three meaningful games every 365 days is all those is that particular club can look forward to. Surely I can't be the only one to whom this seems laughable and backward beyond belief. In no way does such a system make the game appealing for the younger generation or indeed for the current generation of players.

I am not for one minute suggesting that a straight league format should be introduced for GAA championships, instead a balance between that and knock out needs to be ensured.

[TheManFromFerbane]

If you ask die-hards of those sports too they'll say there's something special about the cup competition that they play in. If you ignore the Premiership whose league, is driven mainly by the goal of reaching the Champions league, every other sports main competition has at it's core, a knockout competition that provides an overall champion.

Champions League, Heineken Cup, Ice Hockey, Baseball, American Football, Basketball. All of them have their league\round robin system but none of them really get excited about their competition until the knockout begins. Sure even the leagues themselves don't get really fired up until it's a case of if they lose this one they are out of the running for the title/champions league spot/staying up.

Now obviously players wouldn't be in favour of one game and your out, but a smaller round robin group is in my opinion the best way to balance giving players, supporters, clubs games to get truely excited about, while still maintaining an element of we really need to win this one, which after all, is what generates the excitement in the first place!

[Lone Shark]

In both rugby and soccer, (albeit you have to go a long way back in soccer's case) knockout competitions were always the bigger event, until professionalism came along, and supporters had to be cajoled into getting vested into an event where they had to pay in every week, or every fortnight, or whenever. I'd be strongly of the opinion that when it comes to knockout vs league in both of these cases, it was a case of Paul Weller being on the ball - the public wants what the public gets, as opposed to vice versa. People are told they want more games, they convince themselves that more is better, ergo we get more games.

Put simply, professionals are doing it for the money. If I'm playing for the money, then I get my paycheck just the same whether it is a cup final or an end of season runabout with 9th place in a 14 team league at stake. I play for the money, and the big glamour days are just gravy. If I'm seen to only put my best in when it suits me, then my employer doesn't like that, and my paycheck suffers, either now or in the long run.

GAA players, club or county, don't do it for the money. They do it for the county/club/locality, and their motivation is doing their best for themselves, their team and the area they represent. None of those people care about meaningless end of season games, ergo when you have a championship game where one team needs to win and the other doesn't, nine times out of ten AT LEAST you get the same result. My problem with this structure is that by guaranteeing that such games will take place, the county board has ensured that some teams will pick up handy wins that they would otherwise not have got, and some other teams will suffer for that.

1:games played week in week out without cries of burnout, 2: the eventual winners being deemed worthy champions despite having lost more than two (shock, horror will somebody please think of the children!) games and 3: the league maintaining it's integrity despite the existence of numerous games where only team has something to play for.

On point one, no player in GAA gets burned out playing for one team. They get burned out playing for a myriad of school, college, county, club, underage, senior, provincial, interfirms and twenty other types of games over the course of a year, often in two sports and with no co-ordination between them. Another reason why extended championship formats don't work, since in league sports players have one boss who has a vested interest in their health - here no such co-ordination happens. On point two, it's all about playing the system. I don't think anyone would suggest Tullamore are unworthy hurling champions this year, they played the system and peaked when they needed to. The point is that if the same system was repeated, round robin games would get feck all more of a crowd than league games do now. As for point three, well that's dubious to say the least. In most European soccer leagues, it's so presumed that you will lie down and die when you've nothing to play for that your opponents would often take offence that you would attempt to deny them a win for no reason other than contrariness. Italy in particular is really annoying for that - the league can often be decided with five or six rounds to go even if there is only a small lead, if enough mid table opponents lie in wait. Likewise if you think there will be any integrity in the performances of Brive, Harlequins or Perpignan in the coming weeks in the Heineken Cup, well all I can say is don't go putting money on it.

Under these systems the most that any player or supporter from one of the less successful clubs can hope for is two or perhaps three meaningful games every year. Imagine, two or three meaningful games every 365 days is all those is that particular club can look forward to. Surely I can't be the only one to whom this seems laughable and backward beyond belief. In no way does such a system make the game appealing for the younger generation or indeed for the current generation of players.

I can't help but feel that again, you're projecting from other sports onto GAA, when it doesn't work like that. If you are a Man United supporter, and I mean the most genuine one in the world, of course it seems like following a GAA club gives very little by way of games in return. However the GAA supporter has a county team, while the Man U fan might have no international games all year of significance. (I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that an Ireland supporter in 2010 will be fairly short on activity). The Man U fan, even the diehard, probably won't know anything about the reserves, and certainly wouldn't take any satisfaction from a year where the reserve championship was the biggest trophy on the mantelpiece. Shinrone added a junior A title to their roll of honour this year, and I'd say as a result no-one in the club would consider the year a write off. The Man U fan certainly wouldn't know too much about the youths, but a club under 21 championship or minor championship is a very big deal for most clubs. The Man U fan probably couldn't even name a 14 year old playing for the club, but even an under 12, under 14 or under 16 title can mean a lot to a GAA club.

I appreciate completely you're looking at this from the standpoint of being an enthusiastic supporter who would like more games and I've sure there are plenty more like you on the board, but I'd be very much on the opposite side of the fence on this one.

[The Magpie]

I have to agree with LS and MFF on this one. When a Championship campaign has such an extensive League process, it just starts to feel like the League. I think crowds, which are already quite poor, would suffer further. Finding the right mix is the secret.

I liked the format of the 2009 Football Championship. It has been that way for a number of years and I thought it worked well. In terms of fairness, very few clubs could complain - although I didn't feel that Clara deserved to reach a County Quarter Final in 2005 without winning a game.

To the issue of clubs losing games (1, 2, etc), the 6 team group really only exacerbates the problem. If Tullamore, in a 4 team group, could play three games and lose two (Football Championship 2008), yet still qualify from that group is the giveaway. Increase the group by 1 and do the maths. Increase it by another and do the maths. A team could qualify in 4th place by winning just one match out of five, while losing the other four (assuming that scoring difference is applied).

A short league campaign is generally an effective and fair triaging process, rooting out the weaker teams that shouldn't be competing at the business end of the Championship.