A few thoughts from watching the hurling last weekend.

[Lone Shark]

There have been many sparring battles between several people on this site and Offaly's Future regarding Offaly hurling management and their role in our current malaise, and I'm hoping that this thread doesn't descend into another such event seeing as a lot of what I'm about to say would be supportive of a lot of his themes.

Whatever about the reasoning behind it, last weekend was a serious indictment of the psychological state of our hurlers. Now obviously this is all qualified by the farcical nature of the opposition that Dublin provided, but here's a few bare facts.

(1) Against Tipperary, a game with everything on the line, we hit 16 wides and 13 balls over the bar. Against Dublin, freed of the shackles of "championship" hurling, we hit 25 points and a mere six wides. Now obviously there is a world of difference between the amount of pressure exerted by Dublin backs last weekend and that of the Tipp backs in Semple that Saturday, but even so it is a fairly stark comparison. Either it means that our players are cracking under the pressure and taking shots they shouldn't, or else they are choking and missing shots that would normally be scored. (To take this on further, could the unequal nature of the Offaly club championship mean that a lot of players don't really get used to that kind of intensity in our domestic games?)

(2) While you might argue that we only got so close to Tipp on account of Tipp's exhaustion due to the three game saga with Limerick, even if we are six or seven points worse than them on a normal day, that makes us at least a match for a Tipp team short of Eoin Kelly and five or six other usual starters. (Curran, Diarmuid Fitz, Paul Kelly....). Yet just that very Tipp team took on Cork last Saturday night and absolutely wired into them with no fear and got a great result. Now I'm not saying we're good enough to beat Cork, but why can we not play with such fire and fury in what was the last chance to save our championship skins? No Tipp team would ever surrender meekly like we did in Cork, irrespective of any mitigating circumstances. Why does it happen so often to us?

(3) Whatever we might say about John McIntyre, his comments on the Sunday game (where he implored anyone listening to reprieve Offaly's relegation from division one) aroused two very different emotions. One side of me was angry that we're still whinging (or at least perceived to be) about something that we were fine with until it bit us on the behind, but I was also quite impressed by the fact that even now, with his job undoubtedly gone, he still takes the future of Offaly hurling very personally and feels it deeply. For a Tipperary man living in Galway who won't have many fond memories of his time here, there is something to be said for that. I'm not talking about all the clichéd stuff about "they love their hurling down here in Offaly" - that was all bunkum for the cameras, but the fact that he still wanted to try and make an impact rather than just firing out a few soundbites. I'm not going to suddenly say that he has done a good job or anything, but that kind of stuff is not to be taken for granted either.



Three random, fairly unconnected issues, but there you go. All thoughts welcome.

[Offalys Future]

Good topics Lones Shark

To your first point, my own opinion is that the club championship is at an all time low at present. Birr were a great team and they have completely dominated Offaly hurling for a long time now.
But in the last two years even Birrs standard has dropped alarmingly.
Look at club teams that have been successful - Nemo Rangers and Athenry for instance. When Athenry were doing well in the hurling they changed their sponsor to Eircell and they bulit state of the art facilities.
In Cork Nemo have unbelieveable facilities too. Alot of this was down to relocating but now they have one of the best sporting facilities in the country.
But look at Birr, one pitch, terrible dressingrooms and no other facilities. Again when they were starting to do well they invested all their money in a stand, but was it really needed? I myself feel that one stand is plenty for a small county such as Offaly. Birr should have invested in playing facilities for their teams and then Tullamore could have made improvements to the stand that was there already.
Now how does this go back to club hurling in Offaly.
Well Birr is a big town and if they had proper facilites i have no doubt this would contribute to their success and alot more kids in Birr would be playing.

With the other clubs i have said already that ten managers have no qualifications and talking a few months ago to the games development officer he finds it hard to get coaches to attend seminars coaching courses etc.

In order for Offaly to start working at underage they have to get a group together that are going to work together and make it happen. In order to this they need the backing and finance from the county board and the full co-operation from clubs and schools in the county.
Even in the last few weeks you would not believe some of the exercises that the kids were doing at these summer camps - just crazy.

Just one other thing on this point, the night the twenty ones played in kk there was underage games taken place in Offaly.

I dont know i know it cost money but all it takes is a little organisation to get these kids to the games. Like for instance wed night how many kids will get a chance to see the Leinster Final? Now i know its a wed but if a bus and maybe there is one organised was leaving from Birr on wednesday or Tullamore, in conjunction with the schools and clubs i am sure you would fill them no problem. I know the answer here will be that all this takes time and committment, but i am afraid the above and alot more is what it is going to take to get Offaly hurling back to where it should be.

Just in relation to McIntyre, again i dont know the man personally and i am sure he is a nice man, all my points were related to him as a trainer and a manager as the Offaly Hurling Team and never once did i go beyond hurling matters when speaking about him.
It wasnt just because of him that Offaly did bad either, he contributed as did, county board, selectors, players, supporters. In order to achieve success you need all of the above working together and all after the same thing. I'm afraid that didnt happen this year.

[Lone Shark]

To your first point, my own opinion is that the club championship is at an all time low at present. Birr were a great team and they have completely dominated Offaly hurling for a long time now.
But in the last two years even Birrs standard has dropped alarmingly.
Look at club teams that have been successful - Nemo Rangers and Athenry for instance. When Athenry were doing well in the hurling they changed their sponsor to Eircell and they bulit state of the art facilities.
In Cork Nemo have unbelieveable facilities too. Alot of this was down to relocating but now they have one of the best sporting facilities in the country.
But look at Birr, one pitch, terrible dressingrooms and no other facilities. Again when they were starting to do well they invested all their money in a stand, but was it really needed? I myself feel that one stand is plenty for a small county such as Offaly. Birr should have invested in playing facilities for their teams and then Tullamore could have made improvements to the stand that was there already.
Now how does this go back to club hurling in Offaly.
Well Birr is a big town and if they had proper facilites i have no doubt this would contribute to their success and alot more kids in Birr would be playing.

There's no question but the standard has suffered in recent years. It was one thing Birr hammering all round them when they were All Ireland standard, but they patently aren't any more and are still demolishing all but Coolderry. Having said that, only Toomevara came close to beating Ballyhale this year, so perhaps it was just the start of a new dynasty - after all they did to their Wexford and Galway counterparts exactly what they did to Birr.

As regards the Birr town issue, well I actually don't think Birr are doing that badly in terms of putting teams out. Crinkle and C&R both cut into the town a bit and Birr still field 3 adult teams - in comparison with what the likes of Tullamore do in football it's hard to fault them. I wouldn't imagine that the amount of kids in Birr lost to hurling is anything over and above what you would find in similar size towns like Thurles, Adare, Loughrea or Shannon, all comparably sized towns with a strong hurling tradition.

As for the grounds issue, well Birr obviously could do what Nemo did and sell up and move to an out of town venue. Nemo did get a ridiculous amount of money for their premises, but there's more to life than money, and seeing as the current site is more or less the same as White's Field where the first AI final took place, there is a "greater good" argument in favour of staying put.



For what it's worth though, the issue at debate was not really about the standard of the teams - merely the fact that so many of the players could go through the entire club championship campaign with maybe only one or two games where the result of their games could be in doubt and they could end up taking a vital shot in the last ten minutes of a close game. If you look at our current front eight, the two Hanniffys and Sean Ryan, as well as Brian Carroll and Damien Murray all play for clubs that may not play a close game until the county final. Brendan Murphy is arguably in the same boat except for less good reasons (sorry treas...) which leaves Joe Bergin and Derek Molloy who will probably have to step up and deliver for their club in tight situations a few times this summer.

Contrast that with the Tipp forward line, where every one of them are pivotal players for teams that play tight games and thus find themselves in pressure situations much more often. There may be nothing in this theory, but on the other hand....

[azoffaly]

I think we seriously need to look at divisional sides for the county Championship and model our championships, hurling and football, on the Kerry model.

I've spent a good deal of my time in Kerry, as a lot of ye know , and the situation they have could work in Offaly as well. A lot is spoken about tradition and the rest, which is undoubtedly true, but the key component in them turning out good players is that everyone, from Novice Clubs to Senior gets the chance to develop and play Championship games against other good teams.

The set up in Kerry, using South Kerry as an example as it is most familiar to me.

There are 9 club teams in South Kerry. They are Saint Mary's Cahirciveen, Ballinskelligs/Foilmore, Renard, Derrynane, Portmagee, Valentia, Waterville, Dromid Pearses and Sneem.

Each of these clubs field teams in their respective divisions of the County League, e.g. Cahirciveen Division 1, Waterville Div 2, Dromid 2, Renard 4, etc etc.

Each of these clubs also compete in their respective 'Club' Championships, such as Senior, Intermediate, Junior, Novice etc.

Each of these clubs also compete in the South Kerry championship, which is hotly contested, and the highlight of the year for the normal club player.

However, the kicker, and the real benefit to Kerry, is that the best players on these 9 small clubs combine and play under the banner of South Kerry in the Senior, Under 21 and Minor County Championships.

This allows players such as Declan O'Sullivan, the Captain of Kerry for the past 3 years, to progress and play a serious level of Club football and be a huge player for Kerry. When was the last time a Junior club player was such an big figure for Offaly, (Ciaran McManus excepted). It's not just Declan O'Sullivan either. Killian Young plays for a Division 4 Junior Club (Renard), Ronan Hussey, Ronan O'Connor, and Paddy Curran all play for small townland or village type clubs. All have represented Kerry at various levels with distinction. Players like Seamus Moynihan, Paul Galvin, Eamon Fitzmaurice and others have all benefited from playing championship football with Divisional sides like East Kerry, Shannon Rangers, Feale Rangers, Kenmare etc etc.

Obviously the coaching structures etc also exist down there, which is the foundation work, but the ability to play big games against other divisional sides as well as big clubs like Laune Rangers, Dr. Crokes, An Gaelteacht, Austin Stacks etc is a huge factor in their development. I remember Declan O'Sullivan as a raw 17 year old playing for Dromid in a junior championship match. His talent was obvious, but without being part of the South Kerry minors, and beyond, he would never have been a three time Kerry Captain.


So to Offaly, how could it benefit us? In my opinion, we have a small pick as it is, and there is no point in limiting the top quality games players can play in either code. Let's keep the clubs, but play divisional (West, South, North, East whatever Championships), and let the bigger clubs enter the County Championships on their own. No need to merge Birr in hurling, or Rynaghs, or Tullamore or Clara or Rhode or Edenderry in football. But let's think about merging the likes of Shannonbridge, Cloghan, Pullough, Doon, even Ferbane as West Offaly, for both hurling and football. Let's merge Birr, shinrone, Clareen etc etc for Football.

I'm not talking about loose alliances, I'm talking about a root and branch approach at senior, under 21 and minor level.

By all means keep the divisional championships, and they would be some craic!!, but lets try and raise the standard of our County Championship games.

The only downside I can really see with this approach, and has been the case in Kerry, is that if a Divisional side wins the County Championship, then they will be barred from the AIB club championship. To be honest, I think we could live with allowing the last standing major club to progress in that case.

What do you think? Would it work in Offaly? I'm sure it would take getting used to, but I have seen it in action, and I have seen gradual progression of players to reach standards they couldn't dream of if they did not have the avenue available. How many 'rough diamonds' are buried in the junior fields and small clubs around the county?

What say ye?

[the bare biffo]

I think that in principle there is no doubt that the overall standard of player coming out of this system would be raised.

But I am just wondering, apart from the tribalism, is Offaly big enough to benefit from this system.

How many teams, clubs and regions, play in the Kerry championship ?

[azoffaly]

Hi Bare Biffo,

I've started a new thread on this, as I probably shouldn't have posted in the hurling thread. I'll reply out on the other one...