DD wrote:Whether it was solely tactics by Roe or bad decision making by the players, too often when we won posession around the middle of the field we slowed the play down instead of bombing it in early.
Had to be tactics. The reason there were no kick passes was because there were no wing forwards to kick it to! In fact most of the time it was our wing forwards who had the ball in their own half back line. Couple that with Deehan not making any runs there was f*ck all our backs could do with the ball when they got it.
We should have moved to a more traditional formation, maybe leaving out the FF if that's what you wanted. The way things were left were a sham.
In the first half westmeath took their scores with a lot more ease than we did
You still haven't expalined the scores Westmeath took with ease Do you mean Dessie's frees?
Westmeath took their scores with more ease in the first half than we were, thats my point, im talking about all their scores, and ive explained why this is my opinion. Yes, this includes frees... remember, we missed one from the 14 yard line!....
I was in the stand close to the road.....(to preempt your next question)..... so i could see all the play when westmeath were attacking.. they ran good lines down the RHS all during the first half.... and were able to find their forwards at ease.... it was our blanket defense that meant they hadnt more on the board.. but this also meant our forwards didnt get any good ball...
Sydthebeat wrote:
Westmeath took their scores with more ease in the first half than we were, thats my point, im talking about all their scores, and ive explained why this is my opinion. Yes, this includes frees... remember, we missed one from the 14 yard line!....
I was in the stand close to the road.....(to preempt your next question)..... so i could see all the play when westmeath were attacking.. they ran good lines down the RHS all during the first half.... and were able to find their forwards at ease.... it was our blanket defense that meant they hadnt more on the board.. but this also meant our forwards didnt get any good ball...
We still had the better chances in the 1st half and didn't take them... as useless as Roe is, he can't kick the over the bar for the players.
Where Roe does really stand indicted is is failure to have any other option other than what he started with and his unwillingness to even chance his arm and change something when the game was going away us.
The other things that have barely been mentioned is that Wesmeath just have better players than us, are fitter than us and wanted it more.
The Magpie wrote:I thought my post was clear enough.
I'm not suggesting that guys playing intermediate football are not (or will ever be) good enough to play inter-county. What I'm saying is this, just in case it's not clear:
- Playing intermediate football is zero conditioning or preparation for Senior Inter-County Championship football. quote]
Players are not prepared or conditioned by their clubs for Senior-Inter County Championship football, this is supposed to be done by the Senior Management, afterall they are training since October and their clubs have only seen them for 1 week before the 1st round of the Championship. Some intermediate tems are fitter than the weaker Senior teams.
That much is true, but let's look beyond a single season/campaign. Playing Senior Club football conditions footballers (not entirely - more work must be done) for playing at Inter-County level - much moreso than playing at Minor or U21 grade inter-county. It's a sharper game, it's quicker and very quickly the 'nervous' lads get rooted out.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that playing Senior Club football benefits footballers that play with the County.
If I read your statement literally, you're almost suggesting that our Senior Club competition has no positive effects on our Inter County game, since the players don't spend any time with their clubs. By this logic, we'd be just as good if we didn't have a Senior Club championship.
Do you believe that Oceans?
The Dog chases the Car....the Car stops....the Dog can't Drive!
fair enuff magpie, it mite improve standard of club football and possibly improve county team, but the gaa is about where ur from , ur place, growing up 2gether , playing underage and if ur good enuff having the honour of wearing the green white and gold.its not about playing with the next town at all costs. we didnt need 2 du it in 82 or when t lyons restored us .maybe the talent isnt there, isnt been used properly,mayb the desire isnt there.but forcing clubs 2gether could turn alot of guys away.matt connor and brendan lowry made there debuts in little school fields, there journey began there and croke park came along after that, dnt lose focus of what the gaa is
A poor result on saturday evening, especially when you cosider that Denis Glennon was kept quite for 50 mins, in the first half our negative formation worked well. I know we went in behind by a point but we kicked some poor wides and gave away soft frees.
On a positive note Shane Sullivan played well untill dismissed.
Niall Smith was superb, he fielded great throughout.
Brian Darby was good apart from wayward shooting but he more than likelyhas played his way onto the backline.
Other than that it was very dissapointing, lets hope we regroup well make a few changes and get a good draw in the qualifiers.
Sorry Magpie I'm not gettin onto you cos you usually post good messages but lads who come on straight after the match saying that donkeys don't win derbies are fans we can do without.
I'll go with the simple but effective positive/negative format...
Positive
Niall Smith announced himself on the Inter County scene with a great fielding display.
Even considering they were training so long there was passion in the performance.
Padraig Kelly was very assured and his kickouts were impressive.
Negative
Team Selection- In a word unbelievable. Brian Darby had a reasonable championship debut but this man is a corner back or at least always was. He was ideal for marshalling Alan Mangan. The real disgrace lay in the fact that one of the most talented players we have a.k.a. James Keane was left to rot at corner back. I've seen James Keane kick points, win primary posession and get so involved for his club before... Why is this happening? I feel like I'm taking Crazy Pills!
Half Forward Line- As mentioned by TMFF. There simply was none. Paschal dropped around midfield with his woeful tackling while Slattery and Darby tracked, tackled and got involved in working out the ball. As a result Westmeaths half back line had barely any defensive responsibilities and dictated the game. At least if we had Kelly, Egan or Coughlan playing we could have given them something to worry about.
Forward Play- Did anyone else think the forward runs by Deehan and McNamee to be completly predictable?. No variation at all. Every back will tell you they love a forward who moves for a ball in straight lines. There was no dummy runs, sharp turns, crossfield darts.
Personnel- Neville Coughlan, Séan Casey, Rory Guinan need to be asked in again. Likewise Jason Kelly and David Egan have to be given a chance.
Roe hasn't got what it takes.
The last I heard of Steven Darby he was taking it easy with some team in Kildare! Ask him in quick and Phil O' Reilly if he wants too. Get someone in with a knowledge of West Offaly ie. Lone Shark! seriously though anyone with other suggestions that the players would respond too? to form a triple management team with Darby in charge. I don't like it but if the best players have to be cajoled in do it. Pride has to be restored. Whichever poster referred to the Carlow analogy is frighteningly close.
I know of players who don't want to play not due to losing there Saturday nights but the fact that Offaly are so far off the pace that it's not worth their while...
Anyone else notice the st brigids tactics offaly seemed to employ last sat nite.. Laz Molloy is obviously over powering Roe.. They'd wanna shaft him and roe fairly quick.. Kieran Rigney seems to have no say.
Offaly dream Management team:
Director/Advisor - Eugene McGee
Manager - Stephen Darby
Selectors - Finbarr Cullen, Matt Connor.
If they couldn't do the job then offaly has no hope.
Bernard Flynn put it right on the Sunday Game when he said "The soul is gone out of Offaly Football"
OK, I've held me breath for a while here. I think a lot of the comments thrown at the players here is wrong. Apart from the fact that they put so much effort in for the past six months I think bar one or two they gave 110% on the field Saturday. Don't blame them for the tactics or the way the team was picked. 100% of the blame has to go on the management. I know that Roe can't help it if a lad kicks the ball wide, but far too often I saw the forward taking the shot with 4-5 Westies around them. That's a result of the tactics. Niall Mac is not a free taker and we didn't have one out there - that was well stated last week!
The sending off was a massive blow, we were still well in it and straight away while the defense was trying to sort things out Dolan got the goal. Glennon never got a sniff of it until Sullivan went off, then like all sunshine footballers when your team is ahead he started to come into the game. Dolan got some great scores but he was the only one that looked like he wanted to have a shot. At one stage three Westies had a chance to take a shot but they all passed it up leaving it to Dolan to put a great point over from beside the tunnel. Slatts should have been put to do a man to man on him.
It's a poor state that the best line (from the program) that we had out there was the half forward line and not one of them spent more that 10 seconds in their position. Two scoring forwards on the team picked is a disaster. The tactics could have worked well if we had two lads that held the half forward line position, in my mind with the game plan that we went out with these two players are the key to winning. They are the link between back and attack. What was needed there was Jason Kelly and Jimmy Coughlan on that line, hold the half forward line and when the backs win the ball act as the target men for quick ball out and then relay on to the inside line. Every time a back got the ball the only Offaly men in the Westmeath half were 70 yards away, marked and with two other Westies 15 yards in front of them. There's no way they could get fast ball in so the only way to go at it was to carry it up the field.
I think if we can get our act together we could get a good run in the back door. I hope there's not too many players reading this board, cause this is not as bad a team as everyone is making out and if I was in there I'd say to hell with all this crap and walk away. We need to get the right game plan, the way we went out last Saturday was 100% down to the three wise men. The players did their best to have a go at it but it was an up-hill battle. I feel sorry for the lads because they want to pull Offaly football up from where it is right now but it not possible with no leader.
Two things about management I can't figure out. 1) Why can't we get a management team with some brains? It's all physical condition now and nothing about a smart game plan or on the day switches. When was the last time an Offaly management team out smarted the oposition on the day? 2) Why in Gods name did we go to this Blanket defense after playing our own game all winter? Westmeath spent the last six months working on it and now have it down, they had a few poor starts in the league with this gameplan. Then we think we can switch to this in a few weeks.
Get behind the players cause they're working their butts off. It's fair clear now why all the other lads walked away or wouldn't sign up to it. I'm pissed but there is some light there if we got a decent draw - when is that draw?
I've held fire on this until now because for whatever reason, I've really taken this one to heart and I was trying to wait until I could just look at it like another football match, which is not the easiest thing in the world to do by times. To say it was disappointing is a ridiculous understatement, but to be honest I don't know why - though there was some upturn in form in recent weeks, it was only in challenge matches and we wasted the league playing a style of football that was neither suited to us, not was it suited to playing Westmeath. It was pointless, to be blunt about it.
Though we mightn't like to acknowledge it, and I certainly don't, this is a very good Westmeath team. I think there is some talent in this Offaly team, but I'd stop short of saying we have as good players as they do. I stayed away from the prediction thread last week because I didn't want to put in a negative prediction on this game, but as many other posters on this board will tell you I feared this result all year and though the week of the game led to the blood rising and optimism kicking in, that niggling doubt in the back of my mind was always there - that we just weren't playing well enough.
Still hurts though. As for thoughts on the game, which I will take in random order, good and bad interspersed....
(1) Coming into this game we worried about a lot of key positions. Several of them proved to be worthy of concern, but in Niall Smith we appear to have a fielding midfielder who has come of age. The man was absolutely immense and my honest opinion is that he wasn't just Offaly's man of the match, he was the man of the match, Dessie and Wilson included. This performance means that a midfield shirt is his to lose for the foreseeable future.
(2) In my old age I've mellowed, and I no longer castigate managers who pick teams and tactics differently to how I would. Different people have different strategies, and that's fair enough. However I will continue to castigate management who either (i) ignore club form and past county form and the information that gives, and (ii) refuse to accept when things aren't working and adapt quickly to change it. When this team was picked I held fire because though it was a very unusual selection, I felt that to presume how they would act on the field would be to jump the gun and it would be better to see how things panned out. It would have been quite plausible that we were just going to withdraw one man (Slattery) and that Brian Darby had showed an attacking side of his game in training that I had never seen, which would have justified his inclusion over David Egan or Sean Ryan (for example) who would be two other hard working players that would have been sure to track Damien Healy and put in the work if the need arose. I have great time for Darby as a footballer and I truly hope he plays for Offaly for a long time, but he does not belong in the forward line and when it became apparent early on that Damien Healy was not going to burst forward it required the Offaly management to see this and respond to it, with either a personnel change or a swap with Nigel Grennan, who as well all know is much more accustomed to playing up front and was busy on the ball but was struggling to negate Wilson all the same.
As for the lack of changes in the last 30 mintues, well as has been pointed out, and excuse my French, if it's a hot evening on you're losing by six points to Westmeath at home with 14 men on the field trying to do the work of fifteen and you've only made one switch, then you've fucked up. There is no excuse for that. If you're down by six to Westmeath you shouldn't need to be told that you are having problems in several areas of the field and giving Ryan and Mulhall five minutes to pull back six points is an exercise in futility.
(3) Clearly Laz Molloy has too much influence. The all in defending with a dependence on one man to do all your scoring is pure St. Brigid's. While that may suit a limited but devoted football area like Croghan, it is an insult to the footballing men of Offaly that you don't believe there are players in the county with the creativity and incisiveness to unlock Westmeath in more than one way. And, as was said earlier, if this was the plan before it should have been implemented previously with alternatives and adjustments drawn up for when it fell short. Based on what happened against westmeath, that clearly didn't happen.
(4) I'm after looking at the match again on RTE and while McManus didn't have a good game, at the risk of being accused once again of being a constant cheerleader of his, I wouldn't blame him too much. He took on a lot of responsibility while others were looking to shove the ball sideways, he won a few possessions that he had no right to and he did well on the frees in a difficult situation. Stuff like the sideline ball over the line will always attract attention but he was trying to retrieve the situation and I'd be slow to get on his back over it.
(5) All in all, it was hard to fault player effort. They dug in and kept playing to the end, but there were a few people picked who plain and simple aren't good enough. The lack of experimentation during the league cost us here - in theory we have a panel of 30+, but by the end of the year I'd say not even 20 will have played more than 200 minutes of competitive football. That's not good enough. In almost all cases I'd still be very appreciative of the complete commitment they've given.
(6) If we choose to bounce back in the qualifiers I still believe we have the ability to do so, but only if we return to traditional Offaly football and use players who are on form and itching to play. Picking lads on the strength of 2006 or before and going through the motions won't cut it.
(7) The divisional thing has been done on here before, and I'd say most people taking an overview would agree with it, but to get it implemented would require a lot of clubs to bite the bullet and accept stepping back a bit to make it happen. A twelve team senior championship with three or four divisional teams would do the job but all of a sudden you now have four senior teams that will have to make the drop to intermediate, while senior status gets farther away than ever for intermediate and junior clubs. Turkeys voting for Christmas comes to mind.
(8) Whether it be Roe or whoever in charge from now on, it needs to be someone with a knowledge of Offaly football. Niall McNamee's free is just symptomatic of a management team blithely unaware of what the rest of us have known for five years, and that's just one example.
Kevin Egan. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.
The Magpie wrote:I thought my post was clear enough.
I'm not suggesting that guys playing intermediate football are not (or will ever be) good enough to play inter-county. What I'm saying is this, just in case it's not clear:
- Playing intermediate football is zero conditioning or preparation for Senior Inter-County Championship football. quote]
Players are not prepared or conditioned by their clubs for Senior-Inter County Championship football, this is supposed to be done by the Senior Management, afterall they are training since October and their clubs have only seen them for 1 week before the 1st round of the Championship. Some intermediate tems are fitter than the weaker Senior teams.
That much is true, but let's look beyond a single season/campaign. Playing Senior Club football conditions footballers (not entirely - more work must be done) for playing at Inter-County level - much moreso than playing at Minor or U21 grade inter-county. It's a sharper game, it's quicker and very quickly the 'nervous' lads get rooted out.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that playing Senior Club football benefits footballers that play with the County.
If I read your statement literally, you're almost suggesting that our Senior Club competition has no positive effects on our Inter County game, since the players don't spend any time with their clubs. By this logic, we'd be just as good if we didn't have a Senior Club championship.
Do you believe that Oceans?
No I agree with you Magpie. Senior football is a lot faster, sharper and harder. When teams step up from Junior to Intermediate they adapt fairly well but the step from Intermediate to Senior is enormous. Of course it would be better for the county if all players were playing Senior Club football.
Niall Smith announced himself on the Inter County scene with a great fielding display.
Even considering they were training so long there was passion in the performance.
Padraig Kelly was very assured and his kickouts were impressive.
[.
Jasus Silken I have to pull you up on this one and I can't understand how no-one has mentioned it yet either but Kelly was a disaster for the 1st goal and didn't cover himself in glory for the 2nd either.
For the first he came charging out behind the corner back taking himself out of the game and giving Wilson an empty goal to slap the ball into. Had he stayed on the line Wilson would have had to take the ball and would likely have been kept out as his marker would have been able to get close to him.
For the 2nd he came charging out again instead of letting one of the backs attempt a tackle or block, he was never going to get there in time and Dolan picked his spot with ease.
Lads, I was at the match, alot of bull being talked here. Roe and Molloy have'nt a clue and both should walk. They have put Offaly football back to the state that it was in before the Tommy Lyons era. The team selection was shite. Why were subs brought on with 3 minutes to go. As for the selected team, Rafferty (why is he team captain when he is not guaranteed his place, well he should'nt be) should have been taken off after 20 minutes (max), destroyed by Dessie, Brady- this man is not good enough for inter county and again should not have lasted 20 minutes, Deehan - too afraid or maybe cowardly, again should have been taken off after 20 minutes, Kelly was again at fault for the 2 goals, McConway- what has gone wrong with this man, I thought that he would be the next best thing in Offaly Football, a centre back for the next 10 years at least, Slattery- the best wing back in the business, a great man marker, if they were so afraid of Dessie, they should have put Slattery on him. I'll finish now but we're going nowhere with these 2 gobsh*tes over us and we need to get them out now.
It was a disgraceful performance and as Hocker said its a disgrace that players would be out in fine form after the game. It shows how much pride they really have in wearing that jersey.
P. Kelly- Did nothing wrong, an honest dedicated player
G Raff- Very dedicated and gives it his all and is tenacious
S Sullivan- Ive seen him have alot worse games. He tried hard and unlucky get the line. Hes not county full back standard however.
J Keane- A talent but far too cocky and arrogant. Has alot to learn.
P McConway- Similar to Keane, too cocky. Wants the handy ball. Saw him having a torrid time against Rhode this year on Niall Darby. Hes not at his best.
S Brady- Battles hard but was far too loose when Wilson moved into centre and wilson is very average.
N Grennan- Gave it his all. One of the better performers
C McManus- The good, the bad and the awful as usual. Tried very hard and did some good things but kicked some wasteful ball.
Super- far from "super". An absolute disaster for Offaly. Only interested in playing well for Rhode.
B Darby- Disaster. His brother Niall would have been better positioned here on his form with College and Rhode. He destroyed McConway against Tullamore. Brian is a decent club corner back. Thats about it.
K Slattery- One of the best performers. Fought hard and never gave up.
N Smith- Did very well and some very good fielding.
T Deehan- Lack of decent supply because he looked dangerous when he got ball.
Pascal- Why the hell do they play him as extra midfielder/back. He hasnt the workrate for it. Only place he should be is in full foward line beside the 2 boys. Ive seen him roast the likes of canty, higgins, McCarthy when he was positioned at full forward. Leave him there.
Niall Mac- Caused chaos anytime he got the ball. Pure class. Dont let him near the frees though. Its not his fault, its obvious he is uncomfortable kicking them.
Do you mean Dessie's frees?
