Offaly SFC Semi Finals

The Magpie · Post by **The Magpie** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 9:34 am

My recollection is similar. I also thought that the player subsequently became involved in the play leading up to the free-kick. If that was the case, I think Doon must be in with a very big shout for the points.
There's no doubt that there are many examples of teams and games featuring '16 players' - in most cases, it's blatantly obvious that the infringement had no bearing on the result. This one is a little different, though I acknowledge, it's still very cloudy.
Edenderry have already been punished by the rule-makers in the County, and correctly so. It's quite ironic that another ruling (one way or another) will play a very big part in whether they remain a senior club.

Treasurer, I don't agree with your point. I think Shannonbridge did fail to field 15 players. 15 is 15...it's not 14 and its not 16.

Muck Savage · Post by **Muck Savage** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:12 pm

It's sad to see this happeining to E'derry but I don't think this result will be changed. It's put the county board in a bad spot as they are now going to have to rule on E'derry after what happened earlier this year. dds are that they'll bounce straight back up next year, this would be a good motivator. I can see S'bridge back in a dogfight next year to keep their senior status if they stay up but that's a young enough Doon team, bar a few players. They could be difficult enough in senior next year again, they do have three county players more than the majority of their West Offaly neighbours.

Lone Shark · Post by **Lone Shark** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:41 pm

Edenderry will be favourites to come back up, but they certainly won't be odds on. Realistically, if we work off the basis that the 2006 intermediate winners will be one of Walsh Island or Tubber, and the other will be a fit, still young, more experienced side in 2007, they won't be that far behind at all. You'll also have either Doon or Shannonbridge, weaker than Edenderry but still no pushovers, along with sides such as Birr, Raheen, Bracknagh etc. - not really contenders, but still good enough to upset the apple cart on a given day.

Edenderry would be about 6/4, but no shorter.

As for Doon, they may be young enough, but there's a difference between a team that's young because their underage talent is too good to keep out of the senior XV, and a team that's young because the adult talent isn't there. I'm not trying to be harsh, in many cases these are teenage lads who may yet turn out to be fine footballers, but with the exception of David Larkin, we're not talking county minors. Doon players that haven't even stood out on school teams end up playing county senior in their teens, and that's indicative of a lot more than just "a young team".

Hyper · Post by **Hyper** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:44 pm

LS, I'd say Birr would disagree with your opinion there!

Lone Shark · Post by **Lone Shark** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:58 pm

They possibly would, as indeed I'm sure Raheen would too. However if I was to offer betting on the 2006 Intermediate championship, it would be 11/10 WI, 7/4 Tubber, 6/1 Birr and 10/1 Raheen. Add in to that the fact that Birr have a lot of much older players along with the few young lads, the fact that hurling will always be the first sport for a good few of them, and I really can't see them being live contenders in 2007, when the Island and Tubber both should be improved, in theory at least. Either they go ahead and win it this year, or else I'd say senior will be out of reach for them for a good while.

naasmanxrhode · Post by **naasmanxrhode** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:44 pm

Your odds on the Town are very generous @6/4. I would have them @1/2. It would be a stroll in the park for them provided they get the right management on board and get rid of Brady once and for all as and let the young plaers begin to show their worth.

True Red · Post by **True Red** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:14 pm

First of all to be quoting odds on any of the Senior teams in the current relegation battle is a tad disingenuous and very premature.Edenderry are currently awaiting the resolution of the subs fiasco with Shannonbridge & Doon and if we get a favourable result from that its all to play for against Doon.

Secondly.....it is highly indicative of LS obvious anti-Edenderry bias (despite his protestations to the contrary) that he has quoted those generous odds.

How he sees fit to do this is beyond me.A team that was in the quarter final against Rhode last year and bar a couple of goalkeeping error's could quite easily have made the semi.

Addmittedly we have had a bad year this year.The Ballycumber mess,player retirements(Adrian Murphy,Adrian Mahon),serious player injuries(Johnny Hurst,Finbar Cullen,Ciaran Reilly),player emigration(Basil Malone)and change of management have all added fuel to this particular fire.

But to come out on this board and state that if we go down to intermediate(which we havent yet! ) and we wouldnt be odds on favourites to come straight back up just shows the level of knowledge that the LS has of the local scene this year.

True Red · Post by **True Red** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:14 pm

First of all to be quoting odds on any of the Senior teams in the current relegation battle is a tad disingenuous and very premature.Edenderry are currently awaiting the resolution of the subs fiasco with Shannonbridge & Doon and if we get a favourable result from that its all to play for against Doon.

Secondly.....it is highly indicative of LS obvious anti-Edenderry bias (despite his protestations to the contrary) that he has quoted those generous odds.

How he sees fit to do this is beyond me.A team that was in the quarter final against Rhode last year and bar a couple of goalkeeping error's could quite easily have made the semi.

Addmittedly we have had a bad year this year.The Ballycumber mess,player retirements(Adrian Murphy,Adrian Mahon),serious player injuries(Johnny Hurst,Finbar Cullen,Ciaran Reilly),player emigration(Basil Malone)and change of management have all added fuel to this particular fire.

But to come out on this board and state that if we go down to intermediate(which we havent yet! ) and we wouldnt be odds on favourites to come straight back up just shows the level of knowledge that the LS has of the local scene this year.

Hyper · Post by **Hyper** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:11 pm

True Red, Edenderry were nothing short of pure shite this year no matter what way you try and dress it up. If they continue next year as they have finished this year they will struggle in whatever division they are in - I hope it is senior because it would be a disaster for GAA in the county if a town the size of Edenderry can't offer Senior Football to its younger population.
So going on present form those odds wouldn't be far off the mark!!!!

Muck Savage · Post by **Muck Savage** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:53 pm

True Red, I think it's a fair assumption that they're gone. I can't see it being changed but then you never know. I know you felt that ye got screwed earlier in the year by the county board but it'd difficult to see them change the result of last weekend. If they were to play Doon do you think they'd win for sure? I think it would be a shame to see them go down as well but this is the whole they got dug into.

LS, on Doon's young team. This is exactly the reason that I love small country teams. Look at the number of players that have been playing Senior football for a team like Doon for the past 15 years, a lot of them were not seen on school teams also. If you look at bigger clubs like Ferbane, they had a lot of talent on school teams but ended up going nowhere after because they couldn't get on the 1st team and then decided to give the game up. I'm using Ferbane as an example but a few years back theey had two senior teams in the parish, Belmont were good and got to a Q/F. There's a lot of lads on that Doon team that could end up on county U21 squads in the future, similar with Croghan, Eirn Rovers, B'cumber etc. Giving young lads experience and playing at a high standard will bring them on a lot. I understand also that they lost a lot over the past few years to retirement but I'd still say they have a better Senior future than S'bridge

Lone Shark · Post by **Lone Shark** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:38 am

*Dons flak jacket and prepares to re-engage in battle with old nemesis True Red ...*

Okay, here we go then.....

*Starts by establishing defensive position*

Just so we're clear, despite what you may think, I have no anti-Edenderry bias. I am from Ferbane and have gone to school with lads from all the West Offaly clubs, and as such will always support those teams, but that's where my bias, pro or anti, ends. I have been so long out of the Offalty club scene in terms of participation that I have no scores to settle, no old wounds, I just want what's best for the county. If I have any bone to pick with Edenderry, it's a topic long covered by us previously - I am a fit and not completely useless footballer, but I've no great talent either. If I moved to Edenderry next week and transferred to the Reds, I wouldn't get to play a game all year. I've seen Edenderry juniors play a few times in 2005, and ye aren't half bad - which to me makes it quite clear ye should field a third team. No club's weakest team should be either intermediate or strong Junior A, certainly not a club with a large pick trying to offer an alternative to vibrant soccer and rugby clubs. However this is a complaint I could make about Tullamore or Ferbane either, it's not just restricted to ye. And that is the sum total of my bias regarding Edenderry.

*Enters the thick of the battle*

I quoted odds on next year's intermediate based on a lot of maybes - of course it's that way, it's over 6 months away for crying out loud. However I'm struggling to find a precedent of a game where a team was thrown out because of an extra man on the field for a few minutes. Bord na Mona man has pointed out a few examples of instances where the extra man has been ignored, and without Doon pushing the case any further, I can't see anything coming of it. I could easily be proved wrong, but I'll be amazed if that draw is overturned. Right now ye are alomst certainly relegated, so I don't think speculation on ye're chances of bouncing back next year was out of order. Is speculating on how Rhode might do in Leinster being unduly harsh to Brigids/Clara/Shamrocks?

As for the odds themselves, well I will say this. I am out of the county this year and possibly my local knowledge is not all that it was twelve months ago. No doubt several would say it was feck all to begin with. However I do know betting, and I know that as a bookmaker you let other people "pay to see". In other words you price things up based on what you see in front of you, and let other people put the money down and hope for things to change in their favour. Right now Edenderry are a group of talented individuals, talentwise probably fifth or sixth in the county, but collectively they are a mess. Potentially that will improve, indeed it would be hard for it not to, but on 2005 form Edenderry ye would be around 6/4. on 2006 form, post Ballycumber anyway, ye would be three times that. Of course there is better in ye, but it's presuming a lot to say it will come out. Incidentally you do understand that if you go down, you will be joined by one of Doon or Shannonbridge, and for ye to be odds on that club would have to be 2/1 or greater? That's a bit harsh on two clubs that have got a few results against ye in recent years.

Insult my local knowledge if you must, but my odds making is sound. Any price I put up on this board I will lay, and several here will vouch for my position in the industry and how I'm not in a position to welch on any bet. I'm not saying I'm going to accomodate a monkey a man in a 30 man squad, but I'll lay a decent chunk at that price if you want. If Walsh Island fail to win the Intermediate this year I may even push it out.

*Takes a pop at the flanking battalion*

As for your analysis of Edenderry in 2005, and how close ye came, there are many ways 2005 can be read. The Ballycumber games are a topic well covered here, but another way of reading it could be that in four other matches in 2005 ye won one match against Bracknagh, a club that has failed to reach the last four in intermediate 2006. For too long Edenderry has been about feck all more than "not being afraid of Rhode". As for whether ye would have done better if they hadn't got the soft goals, all I can say is that maybe Leitrim feel that if they had got one more point against Mayo they might have won the replay and gone on to be where Mayo are now. It hardly matters, because they didn't.

*Makes one final attempt at brokering a truce*

Once again, for the sake of Offaly football it would be better if Edenderry football was strong. However I'm not sad to see ye in danger of making the drop, because Edenderry messing around in the lower reaches of the senior championship, not making semi finals or finals and not doing themselves justice is no better for Offaly than Edenderry in Intermediate. At least this way it might force the club to take a long hard look at what has happened in recent years and go about actually fixing the rot. The last time Offaly won Leinster Edenderry players were at the heart of it - it would do us no harm at all if a few more were part of our push to win it again in the coming years.

*Sits back and awaits inevitable return fire*

Lone Shark · Post by **Lone Shark** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:44 am

Muck Savage wrote:LS, on Doon's young team. This is exactly the reason that I love small country teams. Look at the number of players that have been playing Senior football for a team like Doon for the past 15 years, a lot of them were not seen on school teams also. If you look at bigger clubs like Ferbane, they had a lot of talent on school teams but ended up going nowhere after because they couldn't get on the 1st team and then decided to give the game up. I'm using Ferbane as an example but a few years back theey had two senior teams in the parish, Belmont were good and got to a Q/F. There's a lot of lads on that Doon team that could end up on county U21 squads in the future, similar with Croghan, Eirn Rovers, B'cumber etc. Giving young lads experience and playing at a high standard will bring them on a lot. I understand also that they lost a lot over the past few years to retirement but I'd still say they have a better Senior future than S'bridge

Muck Savage, I have great time for Doon, as I do for all clubs that manage to field competitive sides with scraggy ends of a parish. You only have to look across the border at Padraig Pearses, comprising three parishes and still battling relegation in Ros this year to see how things don't work when amalgamated. All I'm saying is that perhaps for some of those young lads, it would be better if they weren't rushed into playing senior championship when they're really not ready. Obviously for special talents like Trevor or Jimmy Coughlan they're ready to make an impact, but players have fielded for Doon this year that clearly weren't up to senior football, and while the experience might do them good, it was little short of harrowing in a few cases. Perhaps the situation in Ferbane where they start by playing at a reasonable level playing junior A is better.

However in saying that Doon, Shannonbridge and Croghan all have great records of getting every body in the club out kicking ball and doing their bit at some level. That kind of spirit is something Ferbane would do well to mimic.

True Red · Post by **True Red** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:52 am

True Red, Edenderry were nothing short of pure shite this year no matter what way you try and dress it up.

Forgive me here,but when did i try and dress it up??I stated that we HAD a bad year and then outlined the reasons why.If that is "dressing it up" as you so eloquently put it well then i will have to apologise for reasoned and statistical analysis.

I know you felt that ye got screwed earlier in the year by the county board but it'd difficult to see them change the result of last weekend.

Another glaring inaccuracy.

We were in no way "screwed" by the county board.They were willing to facilitate a replay.Ballycumber werent.If anyone screwed us they did.But thats another story.

If they were to play Doon do you think they'd win for sure?

No guarantees with that but if Shannonbridge had to forfeit the match well then you could be sure that Edenderry would approach the Doon match with renewed optimisim.

True Red · Post by **True Red** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:19 am

once more into the breach.....

Point 1
The problem with your first point is that you are assuming that edenderry have a strong pick. The reality is that we dont.Drink,Soccer and rugby(to a lesser extent) have provided entertaining attractions from the GAA for the last number of years and will continue to do so.You might argue that this isnt a valid excuse but believe me,if you were as familiar with the situation as I am you would understand.

Point 2
There are 2 options open to the county board here as regards the Doon V Shannonbridge match:
(i) Fine Shannonbridge
(ii) Award the game to Doon

The criteria for selecting either of the above 2 options depends on whether the 16th man affected the result of the game.I cant comment on this as i didnt attend the match.

As for your bookmaking skills I am in no position to query these as it is obviously your profession. However I find it a bit facetious to be quoting odds on an Intermediate Championship which could/could not include Edenderry at this juncture.

Point 3
In 2005 Edenderry had a good year.Reached the Quarter Final's.Lost 3 matches all year.2 of those were to Rhode(League & Championship).You say there are many ways 2005 can be read.The above is mine.

Point 4
I wholeheartedly agree.

Lone Shark · Post by **Lone Shark** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:56 am

That was almost like the sound of agreement, let's see how this develops .....

Regarding the odds, just to clarify it wasn't meant as any sort of dancing on the grave or anything like that. It's just that opinions can be cheap, but in PP if you gave an opinion, first of all it came with the appropriate odds or else you didn't know what you were talking about, and secondly you were either willing to lay those odds or else you stayed quiet. A lot of people were presuming that Edenderry were just going to come straight back up with the minimum of fuss if they went down, while I just wanted to put it into perspective - favourites yes, certainties, far from it.

We have different readings on 2005 certainly, but both fair enough all the same.

Regarding the "pick" as you put it, you have a lot of potential players in your catchment area. These players might not be presenting themselves for training at the start of the year, but that doesn't mean that you should just wring your hands and despair. Incidentally I stress I'm not indicating any lack of effort on an individual basis here, however I'm wondering if there really is the will in the club at the highest level to recruit and strengthen by adding depth.

In the Doons and Croghans of this world everybody plays. As a result the club becomes central to the community, and feeds off that. Edenderry GAA has some strong counter distractions but I keep going back to the point that if I moved to Edenderry your club wouldn't have a place for me in any team. I've no doubt I'd be welcomed to training etc., but come match day I'd be getting the worst deal of all - expected to show up or else be accused of having no interest, and then wear 25 for the hour, being asked to warm up twice and then sit down again.

You can't foster a club spirit if lads don't get to play. They don't feel equal to other club members, and they go and play OWL div 5B soccer.

This might seem like a lot of work with no obvious benefit, but invariably a few lads will improve for the training, and move up to the Junior A panel and freshen that up. You might get a few lads who apply themselves well, and that attitude then might buck up a few more talented but less motivated lads higher up the tree. Above all it means that the talk of Saturday night in the pub is Edenderry GAA, not OWL soccer or Leinster Cup rugby.

Now in terms of getting these bodies, have you actually looked for them? Ye're town is full of exiled Dubs come down looking for housing, yet how many have actually transferred to the club? I'm not talking about the lads that played senior for Lucan Sars or Na Fianna before this, but the lads who used to play junior division six and the like? Have ye a plan for posters around the town telling them where to go? Have ye contacted all the lads that got lost between minor and adult to tell them that if they feel like kicking a ball without being expected to take it ridiculously seriously the option is now there? Have ye gone up to a gang of lads that ye don't recognise in Cullens pub on a Friday night asking them if they want to kick ball that weekend? Have ye gone up to all the young parents that drop their kids off at under 10 training asking them if they feel like playing themselves?

If ye have done all this, then fair play and I accept that the situation is a lot worse than I thought. However I know that in Ferbane little or no effort is made to encourage participation, so I assume Edenderry is the same.