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Offalys Future wrote:The Shinrone Club know exactly who it was that hit the referee and the reason they wont name him is because he has 2 kids that play hurling underage. Both Shinrone and Ballyskenagh should be thrown out of both the senior and intermediate championships and every other grade in the county until this person receives the penalty he deserves.

The county board should fight this and not allow them to get away with it.

OF,

Maybe you shouldn't be so free to throw around allegations. You may think it's ok to throw around cloaked hints but Shinrone is a small village & I'm sure there's not that many fellas with two kids playing underage so anyone that knows the area could work out who it is.

I've spoken to a few people from Shinrone & it's common knowledge who did it but, he wasn't acting as a team official on the day and hasn't officially identified himself to the club so what do they do??? They can go to the county board with a name but the man will probably deny it (there's a moral issue there but that's for the man himself to deal with) and who's going to put themselves forward as an eye witness???

I have the fullest of sympathies for the referees in the situation as they probably view the ruling as leaving them open for any kind of attack in the future with the perpitrators safe in the knowledge that they'll escape punishment & that's not acceptable in any walk of life.

It's impossible to know what he county board can do from here as I believe they took the only proper course of action available to them when they imposed a fine on the club. On the other hand, will the referees return to action if the stalemate remains???

On a related topic, I personally find the standard of hurling refereeing absolutely deplorable. I have played senior for the past 5 years and can honestly say that Brian Gavin is the only referee I have seen that's anywhere near the standard required. Too many have axes to grind or chips on their shoulders from their playing days or worse still, never played and have no understanding of how the game is played. While I realise that the recruitment of referees is not exactly blooming, there should be a conserted drive to get in ex-players and just let them at it, over-coaching & over-analysing of how they perform must be a real pain to those that do referee & a major deterrent to those who would like to take it up.

will you cop on to yourself. no allegation there everyone knows in shinrone who did it, the shinrone delegates went to the county board and said that they had no idea who did it. This man is a member of the shinrone club and it is their responsiblity to make sure that he gets what he deserves. But there is too many cowards in shinrone to do that. So they let this man away with it, and jeopardise the underage hurling in the club because of his ignorance.

Dont make me sick. Its a disgrace and the shinrone club should be ashamed of themselves.

Over The Black Spot wrote:
I've spoken to a few people from Shinrone & it's common knowledge who did it but, he wasn't acting as a team official on the day and hasn't officially identified himself to the club so what do they do??? They can go to the county board with a name but the man will probably deny it (there's a moral issue there but that's for the man himself to deal with) and who's going to put themselves forward as an eye witness???

That's a rubbish standpoint for not doing anything - if they know who it is, they should finger him and let the County Board (or whoever necessary) deal with it.

I would imagine that the referees would have a different collective view on this if the clubs in question weren't seen to be shielding the individual, even if punishing the individual themselves was to prove tricky. (I have no idea who the perpetrator is by the way, so I'm not even going to suggest that it's one club or the other)

The problem is that by refusing to name the guy, Shinrone/Ballyskenach appear as if they are condoning the incident itself. Obviously it's not as clearcut as that, but even so it's certainly not a clear and lucid condemnation, which should be the only response in this situation.

If the individual was named and there is difficulty making the prosecution stick, so to speak, then the referees can have no issue with either the county board or with St. Mary's/Ballyskenach/Shinrone. As such the strike would likely be over.

My concern in terms of resolving this however lies in the fact that as we all know, in the GAA if a punishment is seen to have been meted out, even if it has been grossly inadequate, it's very difficult to get a more severe sanction applied. (Witness the amount of guys who have got away with hideous off the ball attacks down the years when the referee chickened out with a yellow card and thus "dealt" with the situation)

I really have no idea how we're going to bring this to a conclusion.

Offalys Future wrote:will you cop on to yourself. no allegation there everyone knows in shinrone who did it, the shinrone delegates went to the county board and said that they had no idea who did it. This man is a member of the shinrone club and it is their responsiblity to make sure that he gets what he deserves. But there is too many cowards in shinrone to do that. So they let this man away with it, and jeopardise the underage hurling in the club because of his ignorance.

Dont make me sick. Its a disgrace and the shinrone club should be ashamed of themselves.

I should have probably said this at the start but I am not a member of either club involved nor do I have any ties to either of the clubs, this is just my own opinion on the subject.

OF, you stated that Shinrone club knew who did it and were protecting him. Unless you're speaking on behalf of the club & can identify yourself, you're completely out of order. This may well be the case but how can we say for certain from the outside. As regards your comment about ''too many cowards in shirone'' why don't you cop onto yourself. How brave you must feel???

DD, I'm not for a second defending the actions of the individual but just pointing out that the clubs are stuck in a bit of a spot also as they can't identify the man if they have no proof. As Lone Shark says, identifying him may satisfy the refs that the clubs are at least concerned about their safety & end their strike but the clubs & county board will be open to all kinds of legal actions if they try to suspend an individual without proof. Outside of the individual admitting to the offence, I can't really see any solution bar the refs backing down. If it transpires that the clubs were protecting the individual, I will be the first to stand up & call for the harshest punishment possible for the clubs but I foresee a long stalemete now that it's come to a head. The ideal solution would be for the offender to come foward but that also looks unlikely at this belated stage.

The match was played
After the game a member of the Shinrone club hit the referee.
A rumour got out that the ref was going to press charges.
The Shinrone club club went to county board meetings and said that they hadnt a clue who it was. This was lies as it is quiet clear who the person was.
This man isnt a real shinrone club man. He wont take responsibility for his actions and instead he was happy to deny guys of 19/20/21 a chance to play hurling. he is a coward and the shinrone club are cowards to let one man do this. He hit a referee and he deserves to face his punishment.

Offalys Future wrote:The match was played
After the game a member of the Shinrone club hit the referee.
A rumour got out that the ref was going to press charges.
The Shinrone club club went to county board meetings and said that they hadnt a clue who it was. This was lies as it is quiet clear who the person was.
This man isnt a real shinrone club man. He wont take responsibility for his actions and instead he was happy to deny guys of 19/20/21 a chance to play hurling. he is a coward and the shinrone club are cowards to let one man do this. He hit a referee and he deserves to face his punishment.

I was actually interested in having a discussion on this but it appears to me that you are closer to this situation than me judging by your last post. I'll leave it to you as you obviously have a personal agenda.

Lone Shark wrote:

Hogan Stand wrote: it was deemed inappropriate to punish the players for the incident.

Slightly off the main topic here but I fail to see why it is inappropriate to punish players. Are the players not members of the club ? What about collective responsibility ? Is the club not a unit that includes players ?

This whole notion of isolation of players as being a seperate entity to the general membership is the basis of the GPA's thinking and it is being encouraged by GAA officials at the highest level. It goes against everything I grew up with where lads who couldn't kick a ball out of their way were club members just the same as lads who won all ireland medals. Maybe it's just a unstoppable process.

Also, I don't know if the ref in question was hurt, but this is one case where I would have no difficulty with the injured party taking a civil action where the GAA has failed to punish the guilty party.

Over The Black Spot wrote:
OF, you stated that Shinrone club knew who did it and were protecting him. Unless you're speaking on behalf of the club & can identify yourself, you're completely out of order. This may well be the case but how can we say for certain from the outside. As regards your comment about ''too many cowards in shirone'' why don't you cop onto yourself. How brave you must feel???

DD, I'm not for a second defending the actions of the individual but just pointing out that the clubs are stuck in a bit of a spot also as they can't identify the man if they have no proof. As Lone Shark says, identifying him may satisfy the refs that the clubs are at least concerned about their safety & end their strike but the clubs & county board will be open to all kinds of legal actions if they try to suspend an individual without proof. Outside of the individual admitting to the offence, I can't really see any solution bar the refs backing down. If it transpires that the clubs were protecting the individual, I will be the first to stand up & call for the harshest punishment possible for the clubs but I foresee a long stalemete now that it's come to a head. The ideal solution would be for the offender to come foward but that also looks unlikely at this belated stage.

To be fair, you can't honestly tell me that no-one in either club knows who did this. They might be unwilling to say anything, but it's quite another to say that they can't.

You paint a grim picture - at this rate we could be looking at this strike lasting for a very long time.

Secondly, I'm not sure if Shinrone/Ballyskenach have considered this, but it puts me in mind of what teachers used to tell me in advance of the Junior Cert regarding my less-than-elegant handwriting. While they agreed that by rights nobody should be marked in terms of how easy to read their attempt at dissecting WB Yeats hormonal ramblings was, human nature was always a factor, and nobody was going to be well disposed towards the guy who had just made them spend 90 minutes deciphering their hieroglyphics and reduced their hourly rate of pay for the night to somewhere between that of a McDonalds burger flipper and a Tanzanian goat herder.

It won't be right, but unless this guy is named, when Brendan Murphy or Tomás Hannon is bearing down on goal in a senior/intermediate quarter final next August, with their team down by a score and a defender hanging out of them, the decision is a lot more likely to be a free out for overcarrying than a free in for pulling of the jersey. Human nature is what it is after all.

the bare biffo wrote:

Lone Shark wrote:

Hogan Stand wrote: it was deemed inappropriate to punish the players for the incident.

Slightly off the main topic here but I fail to see why it is inappropriate to punish players. Are the players not members of the club ? What about collective responsibility ? Is the club not a unit that includes players ?

This whole notion of isolation of players as being a seperate entity to the general membership is the basis of the GPA's thinking and it is being encouraged by GAA officials at the highest level. It goes against everything I grew up with where lads who couldn't kick a ball out of their way were club members just the same as lads who won all ireland medals. Maybe it's just a unstoppable process.

Also, I don't know if the ref in question was hurt, but this is one case where I would have no difficulty with the injured party taking a civil action where the GAA has failed to punish the guilty party.

I suppose a degree of the thinking here is that it is known that the players didn't do anything wrong here, and the greater good would not be served by further alienating large chunks of the playing numbers of two rural clubs. There is something pragmatic about that thinking, in terms of not having all the lads sign up for Roscrea rugby club instead, but there is a grey area here obviously enough.

It's disappointing that the threat of legal action came into this, because knowing the man in the middle I'd be shocked if the thought ever occurred to him, never mind was seriously considered. As above, I could understand completely if a referee chose to go down this road, but I'd imagine it was never on the cards - but it may have been a factor in making the culprit take the subsequent actions that he has.

So i gather the list of club league games wont this place this weekend?

Simple question.

Why doesn't the referee bring an assault charge against this man?

If the referee saw this man, he can identify him (by face if not by name) and bring an assault charge against him. If the referee was struck from behind, he should report it to the Gardai and let them get to the bottom of it...which they would.

the rat wrote:So i gather the list of club league games wont this place this weekend?

All postponed.

The Magpie wrote:Simple question.

Why doesn't the referee bring an assault charge against this man?

If the referee saw this man, he can identify him (by face if not by name) and bring an assault charge against him. If the referee was struck from behind, he should report it to the Gardai and let them get to the bottom of it...which they would.

As I said above, I'd say it wouldn't be in his nature. I'm only guessing, and at least one poster on this board would be much closer to the man himself, but I'd say he'd step down from reffing duty before taking that particular course of action.

It's seldom I would tend to feel as strongly on a subject as "Offalys Future", but in this case I would agree with the strong sentiments expressed above.

It's no great revelation to anyone that if we dont have referees' then there can be no games. I have "refereed" mini-games of U8's and U10's Hurling involving my club in Kildare. I've had a little coaching in this regard and I dont doubt but that I'm not a great referee. But if I thought that there was a realistic threat that one of the spectators was going to wallop me at the end because I didn't give their "little Johnny" a free, then I wouldn't cross that whitewash for any money.

This should be treated with the same level of contempt as when we hear that a Garda has been injured or worse in the course of their duties. There are always rows and fights among thugs where they can go and cut lumps out of each other for all I care. Where an unfortunate Polish immigrant gets stabbed to death for not buying booze for a teenage dirtbag, that is a whole lot worse. But what if a Garda had come upon that Polish man before he was stabbed, and it was Garda who got killed for intervening? Isn't that worse again? A Garda may be expected to intervene like this because that is their job. But the Garda's own protection is limited. Is s/he really expected to put his/her life on the line?

Extreme comparisons I know, but a GAA Referee shouldn't be thinking that he is taking any sort of risk when he accepts the task of running a game between 30 young lads or lassies. All he should be thinking about is trying to be as fair as his own two eyes can see, knowing that he may well make some of the crowd unhappy some of the time, and to be prepared to be happy with his own conscience at the end of the game. Any spectators who cannot respect the referee for that effort does not deserve to be let near a GAA field again.

If we dont have referees' then there can be no games. I would fully support the Offaly Referees in their stance on this issue.

Lone Shark wrote:
To be fair, you can't honestly tell me that no-one in either club knows who did this. They might be unwilling to say anything, but it's quite another to say that they can't.

You paint a grim picture - at this rate we could be looking at this strike lasting for a very long time.

I'm not for a second saying they don't know who did it, in fact it's common knowledge among the general public. However, it would seem that the individual hasn't come forward to verify the story & the club can't give a name on heresay so therefore, just imagine the clubs position if they name him & there's no punishment due to a lack of proof. Surely a defimation case could be taken. As I said in my last post, if the club know the mans identity & won't reveal it, then they deserve the harshest punishment open to the association.

My understanding of the incident is that Mick Mahon was struck from behind or from the side while in conversation/dispute with someone else and therefore, couldn't identify the assailant but did report to gardai that the man wore a Shinrone top. A Banagher official, stewarding at the game and having seen the incident, presented himself to gardai & identified the man he believed to have carried out the attack. This turned out to be the wrong man, whom the garda & steward were forced to apoligised to.

I'm sorry if I paint a grim picture but, I can't see a proper resolution outside of the individual being named & punished & that looks very unlikely. The referees can back down & continue refereeing but that will only halt the impasse, not solve the problem & quite frankly, it's hard to argue with their stance.