Tipperary 2-17 - Offaly 2-13

Bord na Mona man · Post by **Bord na Mona man** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:51 pm

It was a tongue in cheek remark, which I should have expected it to whizz over your head anyway.

You'll have plenty of Cork and Tipp statisticians roaring about DJ Carey's record against Munster opposition based on what he scored from play. The thrust of the argument is "how dare you compare Carey to Ring when Carey only averaged a point or two from play against Cork". The very same arguments could be turned on Kelly who has never delivered a scoring performance against Offaly.

Lar Corbett scored 1-1 in 35 minutes and Sean Ryan got 1-2 from midfield. If you're a slave to stats...
Kelly was the best forward of a bad lot, but he certainly didn't give an exhibition either. How many of those frees that Kelly scored would Damian Murray have missed?

I would have started Franks on him, because Franks has kept him quiet in two big games, '03 quarter final and '06 league quarter. Once the early jitters in the Offaly back line were overcome and the switches made, Kelly didn't make a big impact. In fact he gave away a crucial free near the end, with a petulant swing back of the hurl, which looked like frustration at the tight Offaly marking.

His last point was an excellent finish, but to say only 2 players in Ireland could have scored it is an exaggeration.

Offalys Future · Post by **Offalys Future** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:04 pm

you cant just a hurler from 40-50 years ago to now.

If kelly is fouled he cant score.
How many frees did damien murray miss?
It now is coming likely that Murray might not start on Saturday so who takes the frees then? somebody that hasnt been practicing them for last 2 months.

Yes so you agree with me on Franks on Kelly but how come our astute management didnt see this?

No one is disputing Sean Ryan scored 1-2 from play. Nothing about stats here boss, Lar Corbett scored 1-1 was fouled which Kelly scored and basically cleaned Paul Cleary in 35 minutes. Not stats just common sense if you ask me.
This weekend what happens when Joe deane goes full forward does Franks go full back like last week, if so then cleary could possibly be on ben o connor in the corner.

Again a discussion forum is about opinions, i have mine you have yours, under that pressure and with a man right behind him only Eoin Kelly or Henry Sheeflin would have been capable of getting that score

Lone Shark · Post by **Lone Shark** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:19 pm

We've covered all this already, so I'm not going to start again, but perhaps there were reasons for thinking that maybe Hernon was a better man to start on Kelly than Franks? After all, it was a tricky call - what do you go with, experience and class or pace and form? They tried something, it didn't work out, they switched it straight away.

All I can say is that OF, if you think this is frustrating as a supporter, you've obviously been spared looking at the footballers in recent years when 55 minutes is the minimum amount of time a player struggling in his position gets.

Joe Bergin is not being thrown around to accomodate everyone else either. Joe Bergin is being thrown around in an attempt to bring him into the game. That's five championship games in a row where he has been somewhere between quiet and poor - for Clareen vs Shinrone, for the U-21's vs Kilkenny (where he was appalling, and I'm sure he'd agree) and the three senior games. Joe gets his run at full forward, but all too often lately he's been behind his man and out of the game in there.

As for the McIntyre situation, all I said was that if the graph was going up at the end of the year, albeit from a low base, surely the issue would have to be considered. Again, a lot of this is down to a few fundamental disagreements that I don't think we're ever going to meet on.

(1) You think we'd be able to afford/attract a top class proven manager - I don't
(2) You think McIntyre is responsible for certain individuals not committing to the county cause - I don't
(3) You think that it's the job of the senor intercounty manager to teach a guy how to strike of both sides (Molloy) or to shoot for points (last Saturday). I think that should be covered long before you get to intercounty level.

Bord na Mona man · Post by **Bord na Mona man** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:23 pm

I'd agree that Franks should been started on Kelly.

The fouls on Kelly are a little more forgivable.
However the worst ones were fouls on other Tipp forwards. i.e. ones who probably wouldn't have scored, were they harrassed, but not dragged out of, double tackled, swiped at etc.
Tipp were doing a good enough job messing up their offloads and ball control, that Offaly should have not been conceding soft frees. There were a couple of occasions where Tipp had time, space and spare men and farcically managed to lose possession.

P.S. You can't blame McIntyre for Offaly not having an Eoin Kelly, if "The difference yet again between the teams was Eoin Kelly. You cant beat class."

Plain of the Herbs · Post by **Plain of the Herbs** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:55 pm

Didn't see the other thread open on Cork v Offaly. I've moved this there.

Offalys Future · Post by **Offalys Future** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:57 pm

yes Lone Shark he is been thrown around the place. Last year he score 1-04 off brian lohan from full forward and was nominated for an allstar at full forward, in the league this year he hurled well and scored goals when he was full forward. Against kilkenny in this years championship Noel Hickey came out in front of him and cleared the ball down the field once.

He has been given 25 mins at full forward in this years championship.
If he was let play full forward sunday for at least 45 minute i am sure he would do damage.

Experience and pace or class and form?
sher franks hurled very well against kilkenny

can you explain what you think an intercounty hurling managers job is?

Slasher · Post by **Slasher** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:25 pm

Lone Shark wrote:
Plain of the Herbs wrote:Regarding John McIntyre, I think the man himself has been the first to admit that it’s a results driven activity, this hurling. After three years and a number of disappointing results in key matches (Wexford and Limerick ’06, Tipperary ’07) I think its fair to say that after three years he’s brought this team as far as he can and it’s time for a new bainisteoir bringing a fresh voice and new ideas to the Offaly dressing room.

I heard his post match reaction on Newstalk last night and its clear his disappointment is on a par with that of John Meyler in Croke Park. However, his cries of “I can’t buy a break in this job” brings Napoleon’s desire for lucky generals to mind. Not that Offaly were that incredibly unlucky, mind. When you consider Tipperary’s half back line dominance and Offaly’s poor tackling technique and profligacy in front of goal a four point winning margin is, to me, a fair reflection of the game.
I accept that three years is a reasonable chunk of time and that he certainly couldn't say he wasn't given a fair crack of the whip. However he came on to the scene when it was basically a train wreck (division 2 and the horrendous Kilkenny game being out of his hands), and while you couldn't say that it's been a good three years, it's hard to escape the notion that the graph is on the up. Young players tend to show a lot of loyalty and commitment to managers that gave them their break in the team, so a lot of this young team would possibly be well disposed to him, even if some of those in the fringes aren't. The continuity element is not to be forgotten either.

I'm not saying it's an open and shut case, but I'd hate to see us let a guy go who appears to be turning things around, particularly if there is no obvious successor lined up. With all due respect to the man I don't think giving Paddy Kirwan the wheel is really an improvement, and right now that looks the most likely scenario.

Interesting to note how a few Tipp supporters on Premierview reckon he'd be a better man for them than Babs. Leaving out the polarising nature of Michael Keating esquire, in the current climate it seems odd that a guy could be good enough for Tipp but not us.

Id agree with this. MacIntyre inherited a team in Division 2 of the League. In less than 3 years he gets Offaly to within a puck of a ball of Tipp in Thurles. He has built an almost entirely new team which seems to be getting better with every game. I really cant see what getting rid of him is going to achieve.

Lone Shark · Post by **Lone Shark** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:02 pm

Offalys Future wrote:yes Lone Shark he is been thrown around the place. Last year he score 1-04 off brian lohan from full forward and was nominated for an allstar at full forward, in the league this year he hurled well and scored goals when he was full forward. Against kilkenny in this years championship Noel Hickey came out in front of him and cleared the ball down the field once.

He has been given 25 mins at full forward in this years championship.
If he was let play full forward sunday for at least 45 minute i am sure he would do damage.

Experience and pace or class and form?
sher franks hurled very well against kilkenny

can you explain what you think an intercounty hurling managers job is?

If Joe Bergin was hurling like he was last year then hand him any bloody jersey he wants - the point is that he's not. That's not to knock the lad as a hurler, merely to call it as it is - a spell of poor form. You might say he hasn't been given long in the number 14 jersey, but McIntyre was down in Kilkenny when Bergin played over half the game there and was absolutely cleaned time and again. 45 minutes is almost 3/4 of a match - that's a long time to sacrifice a crucial position to let a man try to play his way back to form.

Franks may have hurled well against Kilkenny but Conor Hernon has been Offaly's best player for the last two months at all grades. I can see why they might have wanted to try him there. Again, I'm not saying that I would have done the same, but I'm not about to hang a manager for making a decision I would disagree with, as long as there is some logic to why he was trying to do so.

As regards a county manager's job, I think his role is to prepare players mentally and physically for the intensity of championship hurling,to sharpen and hone the skills that they supposedly already have, to provide a few little nuggets and techniques in whatever areas they might be particularly skilled, and then to prepare the team for each opponent as they approach with a good breakdown, a SWOT analysis I suppose, of the challenges that lie ahead.

Each player should be analysed in winter with a view to improving the weaker areas of his game, and the methods provided and facilitated for that improvement to occur.

Above all he should reward the players that engage most wholeheartedly in that self improvement, thus creating an environment whereby players realise that only by putting 100% commitment in will they be allowed be part of the team effort. This creates a great legacy into the future.

I do not think that he should be teaching players basic skills.

Offalys Future · Post by **Offalys Future** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:39 pm

Lone Shark wrote:
Offalys Future wrote:yes Lone Shark he is been thrown around the place. Last year he score 1-04 off brian lohan from full forward and was nominated for an allstar at full forward, in the league this year he hurled well and scored goals when he was full forward. Against kilkenny in this years championship Noel Hickey came out in front of him and cleared the ball down the field once.

He has been given 25 mins at full forward in this years championship.
If he was let play full forward sunday for at least 45 minute i am sure he would do damage.

Experience and pace or class and form?
sher franks hurled very well against kilkenny

can you explain what you think an intercounty hurling managers job is?
If Joe Bergin was hurling like he was last year then hand him any bloody jersey he wants - the point is that he's not. That's not to knock the lad as a hurler, merely to call it as it is - a spell of poor form. You might say he hasn't been given long in the number 14 jersey, but McIntyre was down in Kilkenny when Bergin played over half the game there and was absolutely cleaned time and again. 45 minutes is almost 3/4 of a match - that's a long time to sacrifice a crucial position to let a man try to play his way back to form.

Franks may have hurled well against Kilkenny but Conor Hernon has been Offaly's best player for the last two months at all grades. I can see why they might have wanted to try him there. Again, I'm not saying that I would have done the same, but I'm not about to hang a manager for making a decision I would disagree with, as long as there is some logic to why he was trying to do so.

As regards a county manager's job, I think his role is to prepare players mentally and physically for the intensity of championship hurling,to sharpen and hone the skills that they supposedly already have, to provide a few little nuggets and techniques in whatever areas they might be particularly skilled, and then to prepare the team for each opponent as they approach with a good breakdown, a SWOT analysis I suppose, of the challenges that lie ahead.

Each player should be analysed in winter with a view to improving the weaker areas of his game, and the methods provided and facilitated for that improvement to occur.

Above all he should reward the players that engage most wholeheartedly in that self improvement, thus creating an environment whereby players realise that only by putting 100% commitment in will they be allowed be part of the team effort. This creates a great legacy into the future.

I do not think that he should be teaching players basic skills.

On point on Joe Bergin - you dont judge a u-21 game as who you pick for senior level. If that was the case Colm coughlan and Diarmuid Horan would be on the Offaly Team.
Completely different

In regards to the management issue.
when donal o grady took on the Cork job he introduced
Hooking and Blocking into training
Striking Correctly into training
He even had to teach Brian Corcoran how to hold his hurl correctly. Yes at 31 he was holding the hurl in-correctly.

So dont talk to me about what a manager should or shouldnt be doing.
Mcintyre hasnt a clue.

He has been a failure from the word go and the sooner he's gone the better.

And of all the things you have mentioned he would not be able to tick any of those boxes either.

Bord na Mona man · Post by **Bord na Mona man** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:48 pm

Well Corcoran did well enough for himself holding the hurl the wrong way, winning player of the year twice before O'Grady came along and showed him how.

Bord na Mona man · Post by **Bord na Mona man** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:58 pm

Offalys Future wrote:On point on Joe Bergin - you dont judge a u-21 game as who you pick for senior level. If that was the case Colm coughlan and Diarmuid Horan would be on the Offaly Team.
Completely different

If you don't judge on U21s, Sean Ryan wouldn't have been picked so.
If a player is not playing well at U21, he's hardly going to do much better at senior.

Joe Bergin wasn't getting to the ball against Tipp at full forward. Granted the deliveries weren't as close to him as he needs, but he wasn't even getting close enough to pressure his man clearing it. Against Kilkenny it was something similar.

He was rightly moved out the field as possibly another option under the puckouts apart from Gary Hanniffy. Unfortunately he was beaten to most of these.

He's not playing particularly well at the moment, get over it.

Offalys Future · Post by **Offalys Future** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:04 pm

sean ryan was brought into the panel a month and a half ago before the u-21's played kilkenny my friend.

Name one of the offaly forwards that is playing well at the moment?

Joe Bergin is a full forward. That is where he plays his best hurling and that is where he should be picked on saturday

Bord na Mona man · Post by **Bord na Mona man** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:16 pm

Offalys Future wrote:sean ryan was brought into the panel a month and a half ago before the u-21's played kilkenny my friend.

Name one of the offaly forwards that is playing well at the moment?

Joe Bergin is a full forward. That is where he plays his best hurling and that is where he should be picked on saturday

I doubt Ryan would have been given the nod at midfield and kept Barry Teehan and Diggy Cordial benched was it not for his U21 performance at midfield vs Kilkenny. If he had played poorly there that night, then it would have been a sign that he wasn't up to the job.
How else do you judge him so, if U21s can't be used as a gauge?

Your backhanded acknowledgment that other Offaly forwards are playing poorly proves my point on Bergin btw.

Offalys Future · Post by **Offalys Future** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:20 pm

Well if that is the case how is Diarmuid Horan and Colm Coughlan not on the Offaly team?
I'm sure there has been matches in training and Sean Ryan was playing well in them.

In regards to Joe Bergin how has your point been proved?

Bord na Mona man · Post by **Bord na Mona man** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:57 pm

If Horan or Coughlan are better than a particular player holding the jersey, then they should be on the team. If they are playing well at U21 against quality players like Richie Hogan and the like, I would take it as a good sign for the future.

You're deferral to other members of the Offaly forward line smacks of "Ok, so Bergin isn't playing well...but no one else is either!".

I couldn't be arsed dodging around the houses at this stage. If you think Bergin is playing well, or is operating close to his potential, then fine. I personally don't think so.