If I knew, I wouldn't be naming names.True Red wrote:so who is he?
Offaly vs Leitrim
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Bord na Mona man
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the bare biffo
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Pat Roe me arse, I see division 4 and Tommy Cooper looming large on the horizon.
Would anyone kindly ask Kevin Kilmurray to reconsider his position.
This was the most depressing performance I've seen from an Offaly team in a long time. Not for the loss but more the manner in which it was achieved. Leitrim fully deserved their win because they were far better prepared, faster, sharper, more cohesive and more motivated.
Ciaran McManus is far from the force he was 3/5 years ago, but still in terms of ability he was head and shoulders above the rest of his team mates and it was mainly due to him, Neville Coughlan and Niall Mc playing in his own half back line at one stage, that Offaly managed to close the gap in the second. Playing Alan Mc at 12 was a nonsense, he wasn't cleaning out his smaller oponent in the air and was short of pace to track back when his man pushed forward. Pascal kellaghan hmay have his faults but he has a lot more to offer than PJ Ward. Scot Brady should be returned to the half back line, Shane Sullivan was beaten throughout. I don't know if T Deehan got in front of his marker for a single ball, though in fairness the ball coming in was also poor.
Unless there is some sort of transformation in this team, I can really see losses to Monaghan, Longford and Roscommon on the cards and we will accompany London, Carlow and Clare in Div 4 and Tommy Murphy next year.
For most of the game Leitrim held a three point margin and in truth would not have been flattered by that margin of victory.
Would anyone kindly ask Kevin Kilmurray to reconsider his position.
This was the most depressing performance I've seen from an Offaly team in a long time. Not for the loss but more the manner in which it was achieved. Leitrim fully deserved their win because they were far better prepared, faster, sharper, more cohesive and more motivated.
Ciaran McManus is far from the force he was 3/5 years ago, but still in terms of ability he was head and shoulders above the rest of his team mates and it was mainly due to him, Neville Coughlan and Niall Mc playing in his own half back line at one stage, that Offaly managed to close the gap in the second. Playing Alan Mc at 12 was a nonsense, he wasn't cleaning out his smaller oponent in the air and was short of pace to track back when his man pushed forward. Pascal kellaghan hmay have his faults but he has a lot more to offer than PJ Ward. Scot Brady should be returned to the half back line, Shane Sullivan was beaten throughout. I don't know if T Deehan got in front of his marker for a single ball, though in fairness the ball coming in was also poor.
Unless there is some sort of transformation in this team, I can really see losses to Monaghan, Longford and Roscommon on the cards and we will accompany London, Carlow and Clare in Div 4 and Tommy Murphy next year.
For most of the game Leitrim held a three point margin and in truth would not have been flattered by that margin of victory.
"The ball may pass, but the man, never."
Shark- you got it in one and to be fair you called this well before the game.have to say though, I'm not loving the team picked (assuming Hyper is on the ball... )
We essentially have four midfielders, and no real pace in the forward line at all, except possibly Neville, who will be mostly using his pace running out from goals. The back line is probably the form six, but I'd be very worried that that's a team picked to be extremely defensive, and that by sitting back and allowing Leitrim on to us we're inviting a low scoring game, and that's a game that suits them more than us.
Twas a joke!
Just one example summed it all up - the game was there or thereabouts for us with 6 or 7 mins to go, a draw was even on the cards.
We got a free some 40m or more out from their goals- in front of Pat and selector.
They just stood there and allowed Ken Casey take the free. I rest my case on this alone- to be fair to Ken he was never ever ever going to get that ball even close to the danger area never mind score it!. Mac has in the past put these over or at least has the potential to put them over. Seems like we have to spend another 2 years while Pat Roe finds out all about his players and then just when he knows most of their strengths and weakness - we will shaft him and start again.
Weak management at county board level is coming through onto the pitch and has been for the last number of years.
Mr Roe and co are "trying" things out- and fair play thats not a bad thing.
In Offaly it is a very bad thing though,because he will not get many chances to do that. He has to start where Killer and co left off, Killer and co knew much then than Pat now knows about the panel.
Surely thats only logical.
The lack of pace on the half forward line was unreal, The lack of a real ball winner on the full line when Neville was brought out the field was unreal.
Slats man was doing what he liked- he was surely man of the match but we never swithed the half backs- we never tried McConway on him when he came in. In fact McConway's man was taken off after 15 mins on him.
We had young Keenaghan on the subs bench - a tenacioius half back or half forward with pace, our problems were all around the middle sector and we bring James Coughlan and John Reynolds. Neither known for the pace or endurance. Both John and James would work very well on the full if we could win and deliver good supply to them, but yestereday we were not getting a sniff at midfield.
Havin said all that Leitrim were up for the game and we were not!!
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Bord na Mona man
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A bad way to start the league. Now there is no more room for errors. As much as we predicted about Leitrim being at home being a tough fixture, it’s the sort of game that Offaly should be winning.
Unfortunately the tactic of putting 4 midfield-ish players from 8 to 12 didn’t work. Offaly's half forward line didn't manage to get past their markers when in possession. Offaly rarely broke this line to put pressure on the full back line.
From the start Leitrim attacked Offaly on the flanks, their overlapping wing players seemed to be on the end of everything. Every metre of the width of the pitch was put to good use. They had a couple of real flyers, Ciaran Kennedy at right wing back and Colin Regan at right wing forward put in superb displays. Those two in particular continually cut through the Offaly defensive lines. Michael Duignan at midfield continually ghosted into space and their free taker Ciaran Duignan hit some superb long range frees.
While I’m sure all due lip service was paid to the prospect of a Leitrim ambush in their own back yard, it didn’t seem to translate into any urgency in Offaly’s early play. And this was the biggest factor. This game followed the template of so many of Offaly's qualifier defeats in the last 5 years.
- Go to home ground of unfashionable but dangerous opponent.
- Start off sluggishly and allow home team to settle.
- Allow belief in underdogs start to grow as crowd gets behind them
- Not be scoring enough, so that a 3 point half time deficit is the kind of deficit that will take 20-30 minutes of tough slogging to overturn
Granted Offaly did improve things the game went on. However it's difficult trying to raise your game and trying to kill the momentum of a buoyant opposition.
Offaly’s shape did improve somewhat with the introduction of Sean Ryan, first as a blood sub for Kieran Hogan and then later on in the first half as a full sub.
Alan McNamee looked a little more comfortable when moved to midfield, as he didn’t come to terms with the wing forward role. Paul McConway also came on for Eoghan Byrne and his more aggressive tackling did put greater pressure on Leitrim’s forwards.
Offaly gave away too many frees that were converted by Ciaran Duignan. On the other hand the Leitrim defence was more disciplined in their tackling. Leitrim’s ability to continually lose their markers and find the loose man was noticeable.
As mentioned there were some notable performances came from the likes of McManus, Niall McNamee, Neville Coughlan and Paul McConway. If it weren’t for McNamee we would have been comprehensively beaten. 5 of Offaly’s 6 second half points were scored by him. His point to equalise at 11 each was unreal. He got the ball out on the just inside the Leitrim half and started on a run, from about 40 metres out, close to the right hand touch line and on the run, he drove the ball over the bar.
I think Niall McNamee will now play further out the field. He has the ability to kick points from serious distance. Crucially from situations where there are several players bunched up in front of him and when you normally assume an attack has been crowded out and broken down - He can shoot from outside the opposition defensive cover. He is also one of our more creative players. Remember Ciaran McDonald started out as a corner forward who took pot shots at goal all day and little else. He eventually became a centre forward playmaker and still contributed hugely to the scoreboard. Niall has enough ball winning ability and craft to do something similar.
Neville Coughlan as a target man closer to goals looks like something that could be worked with. PJ Ward has fielding and ball using abilities, but doesn’t seem to get on the ball often enough. I thought Pascal Kellaghan might have been brought on, but perhaps he wasn’t fully fit.
Overall any ideas that Offaly could breeze through any League matches has been banished. We hope that sparks fly from now on!
Unfortunately the tactic of putting 4 midfield-ish players from 8 to 12 didn’t work. Offaly's half forward line didn't manage to get past their markers when in possession. Offaly rarely broke this line to put pressure on the full back line.
From the start Leitrim attacked Offaly on the flanks, their overlapping wing players seemed to be on the end of everything. Every metre of the width of the pitch was put to good use. They had a couple of real flyers, Ciaran Kennedy at right wing back and Colin Regan at right wing forward put in superb displays. Those two in particular continually cut through the Offaly defensive lines. Michael Duignan at midfield continually ghosted into space and their free taker Ciaran Duignan hit some superb long range frees.
While I’m sure all due lip service was paid to the prospect of a Leitrim ambush in their own back yard, it didn’t seem to translate into any urgency in Offaly’s early play. And this was the biggest factor. This game followed the template of so many of Offaly's qualifier defeats in the last 5 years.
- Go to home ground of unfashionable but dangerous opponent.
- Start off sluggishly and allow home team to settle.
- Allow belief in underdogs start to grow as crowd gets behind them
- Not be scoring enough, so that a 3 point half time deficit is the kind of deficit that will take 20-30 minutes of tough slogging to overturn
Granted Offaly did improve things the game went on. However it's difficult trying to raise your game and trying to kill the momentum of a buoyant opposition.
Offaly’s shape did improve somewhat with the introduction of Sean Ryan, first as a blood sub for Kieran Hogan and then later on in the first half as a full sub.
Alan McNamee looked a little more comfortable when moved to midfield, as he didn’t come to terms with the wing forward role. Paul McConway also came on for Eoghan Byrne and his more aggressive tackling did put greater pressure on Leitrim’s forwards.
Offaly gave away too many frees that were converted by Ciaran Duignan. On the other hand the Leitrim defence was more disciplined in their tackling. Leitrim’s ability to continually lose their markers and find the loose man was noticeable.
As mentioned there were some notable performances came from the likes of McManus, Niall McNamee, Neville Coughlan and Paul McConway. If it weren’t for McNamee we would have been comprehensively beaten. 5 of Offaly’s 6 second half points were scored by him. His point to equalise at 11 each was unreal. He got the ball out on the just inside the Leitrim half and started on a run, from about 40 metres out, close to the right hand touch line and on the run, he drove the ball over the bar.
I think Niall McNamee will now play further out the field. He has the ability to kick points from serious distance. Crucially from situations where there are several players bunched up in front of him and when you normally assume an attack has been crowded out and broken down - He can shoot from outside the opposition defensive cover. He is also one of our more creative players. Remember Ciaran McDonald started out as a corner forward who took pot shots at goal all day and little else. He eventually became a centre forward playmaker and still contributed hugely to the scoreboard. Niall has enough ball winning ability and craft to do something similar.
Neville Coughlan as a target man closer to goals looks like something that could be worked with. PJ Ward has fielding and ball using abilities, but doesn’t seem to get on the ball often enough. I thought Pascal Kellaghan might have been brought on, but perhaps he wasn’t fully fit.
Overall any ideas that Offaly could breeze through any League matches has been banished. We hope that sparks fly from now on!
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Lone Shark
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Overall I have no huge difficulty with a new regime going to Leitrim and losing a tricky game IF be make sure to learn from it. A team that bereft of pace is going to cause you problems at both ends of the field, while picking a team likely to result in a low scoring game was completely playing into the hands of opponents. Against Longford this might be the way to go, but it wasn't here.
I'm not loving the idea of Niall as a half forward, I think it results in him being away from the scoring area too much, but maybe it's time to give it a second go. However I'll need some serious convincing before I'll forget 2004 and watching our best forward spend most of the game tracking Leigh O'Brien up and down the wing, never getting close to goals himself. In saying that, hopefully we've seen from this that the line has to offer some threat. As was pointed out, Reynolds and Coughlan are both decent corner forwards, you'd hope Roe will learn soon enough too that outside of that they offer very little. As regards the backs, Paul McConway had a good year last year, and yet again appears to have proved that though he mightn't be as prominent in club matches as some, he does step up in county games, and for that reason he should keep the jersey from now on until he plays his way out of it.
At the end of the day if we finish up third or fourth, it won't be a disaster. If we finish in the bottom four it is, and right now we have to be very careful about that, because it's shaping up like that could be at stake when Roscommon come to town in April.
I'm not loving the idea of Niall as a half forward, I think it results in him being away from the scoring area too much, but maybe it's time to give it a second go. However I'll need some serious convincing before I'll forget 2004 and watching our best forward spend most of the game tracking Leigh O'Brien up and down the wing, never getting close to goals himself. In saying that, hopefully we've seen from this that the line has to offer some threat. As was pointed out, Reynolds and Coughlan are both decent corner forwards, you'd hope Roe will learn soon enough too that outside of that they offer very little. As regards the backs, Paul McConway had a good year last year, and yet again appears to have proved that though he mightn't be as prominent in club matches as some, he does step up in county games, and for that reason he should keep the jersey from now on until he plays his way out of it.
At the end of the day if we finish up third or fourth, it won't be a disaster. If we finish in the bottom four it is, and right now we have to be very careful about that, because it's shaping up like that could be at stake when Roscommon come to town in April.
Cloone Yesterday
Bord Na Mona Man and others have covered most of the bases but as mentioned there were a lot of positives to be taken from the game also!
If the ref had not given a marginal free against Ger Rafferty for a decent attempt at a Shoulder or if he had given Karol Slattery a free near the end instead of pulling him for overholding we might have got a draw which we scarcely deserved.
First and foremost Niall McNamee is worth the price of admission. Six points from play and kicking 5 in the 2nd half to bring us back level. It was an exhibition and in my view we were privileged to be there to see it.
Secondly the players who played well in their 2nd half positions looked like they will be serious improvements to the Offaly starting lineup & formation. Successes included:
Sean Ryan - Impact Sub (big impact- literally with that big ball-winning hit)
Paul McConway - Impact Sub
Niall McNamee - Centre Forward
Neville Coughlan - Full Forward (Won a Tonne of Ball in 2nd Half)
Kevin Meehan - found Mac every time with well-placed clearances
This isn't certain but maybe it will do no harm to set Leitrim up as a contender taking points off other teams. There could be a lot of twists in the story of this division.
It's no harm to have our weaknesses highlighted in the first game. We can work on them and if we get a win over Carlow then we can progress from there.
If the ref had not given a marginal free against Ger Rafferty for a decent attempt at a Shoulder or if he had given Karol Slattery a free near the end instead of pulling him for overholding we might have got a draw which we scarcely deserved.
First and foremost Niall McNamee is worth the price of admission. Six points from play and kicking 5 in the 2nd half to bring us back level. It was an exhibition and in my view we were privileged to be there to see it.
Secondly the players who played well in their 2nd half positions looked like they will be serious improvements to the Offaly starting lineup & formation. Successes included:
Sean Ryan - Impact Sub (big impact- literally with that big ball-winning hit)
Paul McConway - Impact Sub
Niall McNamee - Centre Forward
Neville Coughlan - Full Forward (Won a Tonne of Ball in 2nd Half)
Kevin Meehan - found Mac every time with well-placed clearances
This isn't certain but maybe it will do no harm to set Leitrim up as a contender taking points off other teams. There could be a lot of twists in the story of this division.
It's no harm to have our weaknesses highlighted in the first game. We can work on them and if we get a win over Carlow then we can progress from there.
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the bare biffo
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There have been some posts here in the past on the idea of playing Ciaran McManus at 6. I wonder did those at yesterdays game see any merit in trying this. I don't think Ciaran has the legs to be the perpetual motion midfield dynamo he has been in the past, but in the second half he collected a lot of ball on his own half back line and had the ability to drive us forward either with a short busrting run and short layoff or with long accurate kicked passes to the corners. I don't think there is anyone else in the panel capable of this. How he would cope with the more defensive duties I don't know.
As for Niall at 11, I think it is probably the best option now simply due to lack of alternatives. It is entirely a different situation to putting him on a wing back 3 years ago. As was stated also, I think he has all the abilities to play a role similar to Ciaran McDonald. From 11 he can impose his ability on a game without the risk of having to chase after a flying wing back.
It is strange how sometimes goalposts are moved. Kevin Kilmurray was branded a failure for, arguably, unluckily failing to hold on to Div 1 status while reaching a Leinster final. But now it's acceptable to lose to Leitrim, finish fourth in Div 2 and end up in Div 3 of the new league format.
Yesterday the only bright spot was the ability of a few individuals to do what we know they are capable of and almost pull off an undeserved win or even draw. The blackspot was the complete failure of management to appreciate the importance of the game and have the team prepared properly. Hopefully there will be a turnaround next week with lots of humble pie to be had, just give me the knife and fork.
As for Niall at 11, I think it is probably the best option now simply due to lack of alternatives. It is entirely a different situation to putting him on a wing back 3 years ago. As was stated also, I think he has all the abilities to play a role similar to Ciaran McDonald. From 11 he can impose his ability on a game without the risk of having to chase after a flying wing back.
It is strange how sometimes goalposts are moved. Kevin Kilmurray was branded a failure for, arguably, unluckily failing to hold on to Div 1 status while reaching a Leinster final. But now it's acceptable to lose to Leitrim, finish fourth in Div 2 and end up in Div 3 of the new league format.
Yesterday the only bright spot was the ability of a few individuals to do what we know they are capable of and almost pull off an undeserved win or even draw. The blackspot was the complete failure of management to appreciate the importance of the game and have the team prepared properly. Hopefully there will be a turnaround next week with lots of humble pie to be had, just give me the knife and fork.
"The ball may pass, but the man, never."
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Lone Shark
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It's not acceptable, however the league is always secondary - Kevin Kilmurray's championship record overall was very poor, albeit no worse than Offaly in general in the last five years. However he never did anything to redeem the championship loss to Carlow, still the lowest point in Offaly football for 50 years. Substitutions were used for injuries only, and tactical switches which were crying out to be made never were. we beat Westmeath who were without their best player and indeed one of the best forwards in Ireland, and who proved this by eventually going further than us in the championship, we beat Kildare when KK's inability to count nearly cost us the match, so overall the amount of clean wins that he can take credit for is low.the bare biffo wrote: It is strange how sometimes goalposts are moved. Kevin Kilmurray was branded a failure for, arguably, unluckily failing to hold on to Div 1 status while reaching a Leinster final. But now it's acceptable to lose to Leitrim, finish fourth in Div 2 and end up in Div 3 of the new league format.
Nobody's saying Pat Roe has done well, all I'm saying is that I'd be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt assuming we see him learning quickly over the next few weeks. And the reason I say that division 3 would be acceptable is that while being in division 2 would be better, the difference between 2 and 3 is a lot different to the difference between 3 and 4 - and right now we're more likely to be 4 than 2.
I'm having a problem with this statement LS. I'm not saying it's false, but I don't think the League can be treated as a seperate entity any more. I know we won a Leinster in 97 from Division 4, but that is the exception that proves the rule nowadays. We simply cannot be operating from Division 3 or 4 next year, and hope to make a serious impact on the championship. Nearly every team in the country takes the league seriously now, and rightly so. The two years in Division 1 helped Offaly greatly in my opinion, and I don't think we'd have qualified for a Leinster final without it, notwithstanding the subsequent loss to Laois.It's not acceptable, however the league is always secondary
If the likes of Tyrone, Dublin, Kerry, Mayo etc all take the League seriously, almost as an extension of the championship, then so should we.
I'd be doing the severe experimenting in the O'Byrne Cup, and challenge matches. When it comes to the actual League games itself we should only be fine tuning. Success breeds success, and a winning habit is a great mental boost to a team.
Losing in Leitrim, arsing around with team selection and tactics is not the way forward.
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Lone Shark
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I agree up to a point. Yes teams now take the league seriously, but in truth if you are experimenting, there is limited value to experimenting in games where the opposition is also at 50% - essentially neither side learns anything. A team should still be prepared mentally and physically for the match and their opponents, and I would certainly concede that it appears that Pat Roe and his team fell grieviously short in this regard. However if for example we want to see Niall at eleven or Ciarán Mac at six, only by playing them there in competitive games with something at stake will we actually see how they will fare. A dominant performance from Niall at centre forward in an O'Byrne Cup match marking an experimental centre back tells us nothing about how he'll do on Bryan Cullen next June.
Also, I don't think there's going to be a huge difference between divisions two and three next year. If this system had come into being last year, division two would have contained Limerick, Fermanagh, Cork, Kildare, Donegal, Armagh, Louth and Westmeath. Division Three would have been ourselves along with Monaghan, Roscommon, Leitrim, Cavan, Tipp, Meath and Wexford. A dip in standard certainly, but still games more than tough enough to prepare us adequately for a championship campaign. It's by playing games that we win by eight or nine points where we learn nothing.
For example, this year we started our campaign with a tough assignment in Leitrim and came away with a stark picture, but a fair idea of what our problems are. Last year we had a handy win over a lacklustre Cork side. From a preparation point of view, this year was almost better.
Also, I don't think there's going to be a huge difference between divisions two and three next year. If this system had come into being last year, division two would have contained Limerick, Fermanagh, Cork, Kildare, Donegal, Armagh, Louth and Westmeath. Division Three would have been ourselves along with Monaghan, Roscommon, Leitrim, Cavan, Tipp, Meath and Wexford. A dip in standard certainly, but still games more than tough enough to prepare us adequately for a championship campaign. It's by playing games that we win by eight or nine points where we learn nothing.
For example, this year we started our campaign with a tough assignment in Leitrim and came away with a stark picture, but a fair idea of what our problems are. Last year we had a handy win over a lacklustre Cork side. From a preparation point of view, this year was almost better.
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D Corner Flag
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We beat Cork last year in the first game and here we are losing to Leitrim, does anyone have an idea of what changes there are on the two teams because on paper sundays team looked strong, bar the Alan mcnamee experiment.
Also theres no point digging one hole to fill another, meaning Niall Mcnamee is our main threat in the corner, sure he can play anywhere but leaving him at centre forward will allow teams to bring back an extra player to double up thus crowding the space leaving long hopeless balls being pumped in.
I no way supported Kilmurrys reign but he had a game plan that worked and we need to improve that rather than starting out with a new one..
Also theres no point digging one hole to fill another, meaning Niall Mcnamee is our main threat in the corner, sure he can play anywhere but leaving him at centre forward will allow teams to bring back an extra player to double up thus crowding the space leaving long hopeless balls being pumped in.
I no way supported Kilmurrys reign but he had a game plan that worked and we need to improve that rather than starting out with a new one..
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black and red exile
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All the facts and figures have been covered very well by everybody, but the bottom line is that we are now in a dogfight after yesterday's awful start. We will easily account for Carlow, Clare and London, but the trips to Longford, Monaghan and the home game with the Rossies are going to be the ones that decide our fate, and I must say that the game in Pearse Park with Longford is the one that im very nervous about indeed.
LS has already hinted that the Roscommon game in Tullamore looks like being massive for both counties. After yesterday's results I don't think he will be far wrong with that prediction.
LS has already hinted that the Roscommon game in Tullamore looks like being massive for both counties. After yesterday's results I don't think he will be far wrong with that prediction.
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the bare biffo
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