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Posted: **Sun Oct 20, 2024 7:27 pm**

FlyOnTheWall wrote: ↑Sat Oct 19, 2024 9:45 pm
jimbob17 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 19, 2024 9:02 pm
Lone Shark wrote: ↑Sat Oct 19, 2024 4:27 pm

and....

I will come back to this topic properly next week when I'm not covering live games, but I do want to pick up on this. Aside from the fact that the numbers are clearly false - all school enrolment numbers are freely available and the idea that there are mode kids in school in either Killeigh parish or Daingean parish than there are in the town of Tullamore is daft. (Ref: https://www.schooldays.ie/primary-schoo ... ary-offaly)

However even aside from that, I find the line that I've highlighted to be somewhere between damaging, misleading, and downright racist. Firstly, even if the idea you were hinting at had any basis, then the idea that the right number is 15% is ludicrous. But much more importantly, it's a horseshit concept.

We all get it that a kid raised in a family where the parents are steeped in the GAA history and tradition needs no cajoling or recruitment, but absolutely everyone who lives in this country is "GAA population", and if I thought for a second that anyone in Tullamore GAA thought along the same lines as this post, then that would be the biggest argument possible for getting another club into the town immediately.

I live in a parish where numbers is a huge problem. My son is one of four boys born in the parish in 2017, albeit that is a bit of an anomaly, there were a lot of girls born that year. The average is 8-10, and we're still fielding teams by ourselves most of the way up along (there's no U-14 team this year for the first time, but again, we have just a handful of boys born in 2010 and 2011, and a couple of those have unique needs and aren't really suitable for football beyond Go Games, so there's only three boys of age, and they're playing and training with the U-16s).

I can assure you, absolutely nobody is outside the GAA population as far as we're concerned. Lads will be brought to training and games, lads will be given special training, people call down to houses to explain what we do to parents that don't understand the culture, we have five schools that are all two or three teacher and we go into every one of them, and that's what clubs should be doing.

I accept that's not necessarily feasible in a bigger town with bigger numbers, but the principles should be the same.

You could very well make the argument that Tullamore are doing a good job in terms of keeping numbers playing, and providing gaelic games for everyone that wants it, and I'm open to that argument. You could argue that relative to clubs in a similar situation (Portlaoise, Naas, Castlebar Mitchels, Cavan Gaels) they're doing well, and all of those are legitimate arguments that deserve to be considered, just as much as the counterpoint that most towns that size can sustain two or more healthy clubs in competition.

But if any club, either publicly or behind closed doors, believes that a chunk of the population within their catchment area is not part of their responsibility, then that is truly shocking, and is serious grounds for another club to be brought in to do the job right.
The accusation of 'downright racism' should be taken back. Nowhere was it suggested that there is a GAA population that is exclusive to Irish nationals and their children. The fact is that there is a much higher chance that those from non national parents are more likely to engage with other sports including soccer and rugby over GAA - that is a fact. I am all for children on non national heritage playing our games and actively promote that but the fact is that they have been shown to be less likely to either start it or stay with it, particularly in more urban areas where other sports have traction.

It is easier in more rural areas to get them engaged in GAA because there is often no other sports in the area.

According to your research there are approx 315 boys in the 4 Killeigh parish schools. This would not include a small chunk of kids from the parish who go to school in Tullamore as their parents work in Tullamore.

There are approx 570 boys in primary in Tullamore. The point is simply this, Charleville National School will provide very few to GAA. Neither will the Educate Together school and they have approx 170 boys between them. That maybe isnt for the want of trying, I don't know what Tullamore do to recruit kids.

The principals of getting kids engaged can be all the same for all you want, but real life in an urban town just does not work like that. If a parent has little or no value or interest in GAA, then they are not going to invest in bringing their kids there. As much as they are welcome, and they are, and as much as the GAA would love to have the best athletic talent in their sport, they wont always choose GAA and are much less likely to choose GAA than they are to choose other sports that their parents involve them in at early age. I accept that in rural depopulated areas, clubs will go to extra lengths and they'll do it because they have to.

The argument is simple. A higher proportion of that Killeigh parish number will start in GAA than there will be in Tullamore. So if you get 50% of that 570 boys in Tullamore to start at underage, that'll be 275. Divide that by the 8 school years and you are looking at a cohort of approx 35 starting at U6 or U7 in a given year. It may be higher or lower than that, I don't know.

Now in Killeigh you are looking at a much higher starting rate than 50% of 315. I'd be fairly sure that generally speaking, they have a much higher rate of 6 or 7 year olds starting GAA than there is in Tullamore and will account for their huge numbers at underage levels - initially at least. That is not being racist. That is just a fact. Of the ones that do start in Killeigh, because of culture, and lower volume of other sports, that higher rate are more likely to stay in GAA up through the Go Games levels than there is in Tullamore where there are many other sporting options. Again, that is a fact. So if at age 10, Tullamore have 30 or so players in a given year, Killeigh parish will have more.

By your argument, Dublin should be dominating Leinster hurling which they are not, because culturally, there is a smaller proportion of kids in Dublin that will hurl than there is in Kilkenny. That isn't racist either. It is a demographical fact.
You’re going to unbelievable lengths to massage the figures.

Why is it such an anathema to you to accept that Tullamore have a numbers advantage?

I accept Tullamore have a massive numbers advantage over other clubs, that is clear to see and only a fool would say otherwise. Ive said that countless times. But ive also said Tullamore dont necessarily have advantage over some of the larger 4 club amalgamtions, some of whom don't need to be amalgamated. In fact, some of those super amalgamations i'd argue have advantage over Tullamore and all other stand alone clubs with their U13 numbers and I am surprised that the likes of the Clara's /Edenderry's etc and other stand alone underage clubs have not kicked up over this. It isn't a level playing field and they see it as impossible to win an A championship because of them. Whatever about having to beat Tullamore, having 2, 3 or 4 behemoths in a competition means stand alone clubs have little chance.

The basic argument is that some of these amalgamations are so big, loads of lads in these junior, inter and senior B clubs just quit at a young age and get lost to the game because they barely get any game time. If we want to keep rural clubs strong, these super amalgamations need to be looked at in my opinion, particularly the ones with the stronger player demographics so that the kids get more opportunity to play and develop, and so that the clubs in these areas get more players coming through. It is beyond me how you can interpret this any differently. Amalgamations should only be there to cater for numbers when numbers are low in 2 or 3 clubs. Some of the amalgamation sides could have well over 40 U13s, 15 of which only get to play. Now explain to me the benefits of that to either the players, the clubs involved, or the county.

If it is the case that there is excessive numbers in Tullamore, then we should look at that too and if the volume is there, maybe the co board should look at developing another town club. However, for reasons outlined earlier, ie all the clubs wrapping into the town (Shamrocks, Clodiagh Gaels, Cappincur, Durrow, Ballinamere etc), I am not sure there is room for another club in the town itself.

And for the record, I was delighted to see Ferbane beat Tullamore in minor final and that their work and effort was rewarded with A minor championship. They obviously worked hard over the years, kept their numbers in this group high through development years and the club will reap the benefits.

Posted: **Sun Oct 20, 2024 11:39 pm**

jimbob17 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 20, 2024 7:27 pm
FlyOnTheWall wrote: ↑Sat Oct 19, 2024 9:45 pm
jimbob17 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 19, 2024 9:02 pm

The accusation of 'downright racism' should be taken back. Nowhere was it suggested that there is a GAA population that is exclusive to Irish nationals and their children. The fact is that there is a much higher chance that those from non national parents are more likely to engage with other sports including soccer and rugby over GAA - that is a fact. I am all for children on non national heritage playing our games and actively promote that but the fact is that they have been shown to be less likely to either start it or stay with it, particularly in more urban areas where other sports have traction.

It is easier in more rural areas to get them engaged in GAA because there is often no other sports in the area.

According to your research there are approx 315 boys in the 4 Killeigh parish schools. This would not include a small chunk of kids from the parish who go to school in Tullamore as their parents work in Tullamore.

There are approx 570 boys in primary in Tullamore. The point is simply this, Charleville National School will provide very few to GAA. Neither will the Educate Together school and they have approx 170 boys between them. That maybe isnt for the want of trying, I don't know what Tullamore do to recruit kids.

The principals of getting kids engaged can be all the same for all you want, but real life in an urban town just does not work like that. If a parent has little or no value or interest in GAA, then they are not going to invest in bringing their kids there. As much as they are welcome, and they are, and as much as the GAA would love to have the best athletic talent in their sport, they wont always choose GAA and are much less likely to choose GAA than they are to choose other sports that their parents involve them in at early age. I accept that in rural depopulated areas, clubs will go to extra lengths and they'll do it because they have to.

The argument is simple. A higher proportion of that Killeigh parish number will start in GAA than there will be in Tullamore. So if you get 50% of that 570 boys in Tullamore to start at underage, that'll be 275. Divide that by the 8 school years and you are looking at a cohort of approx 35 starting at U6 or U7 in a given year. It may be higher or lower than that, I don't know.

Now in Killeigh you are looking at a much higher starting rate than 50% of 315. I'd be fairly sure that generally speaking, they have a much higher rate of 6 or 7 year olds starting GAA than there is in Tullamore and will account for their huge numbers at underage levels - initially at least. That is not being racist. That is just a fact. Of the ones that do start in Killeigh, because of culture, and lower volume of other sports, that higher rate are more likely to stay in GAA up through the Go Games levels than there is in Tullamore where there are many other sporting options. Again, that is a fact. So if at age 10, Tullamore have 30 or so players in a given year, Killeigh parish will have more.

By your argument, Dublin should be dominating Leinster hurling which they are not, because culturally, there is a smaller proportion of kids in Dublin that will hurl than there is in Kilkenny. That isn't racist either. It is a demographical fact.
You’re going to unbelievable lengths to massage the figures.

Why is it such an anathema to you to accept that Tullamore have a numbers advantage?
I accept Tullamore have a massive numbers advantage over other clubs, that is clear to see and only a fool would say otherwise. Ive said that countless times. But ive also said Tullamore dont necessarily have advantage over some of the larger 4 club amalgamtions, some of whom don't need to be amalgamated. In fact, some of those super amalgamations i'd argue have advantage over Tullamore and all other stand alone clubs with their U13 numbers and I am surprised that the likes of the Clara's /Edenderry's etc and other stand alone underage clubs have not kicked up over this. It isn't a level playing field and they see it as impossible to win an A championship because of them. Whatever about having to beat Tullamore, having 2, 3 or 4 behemoths in a competition means stand alone clubs have little chance.

The basic argument is that some of these amalgamations are so big, loads of lads in these junior, inter and senior B clubs just quit at a young age and get lost to the game because they barely get any game time. If we want to keep rural clubs strong, these super amalgamations need to be looked at in my opinion, particularly the ones with the stronger player demographics so that the kids get more opportunity to play and develop, and so that the clubs in these areas get more players coming through. It is beyond me how you can interpret this any differently. Amalgamations should only be there to cater for numbers when numbers are low in 2 or 3 clubs. Some of the amalgamation sides could have well over 40 U13s, 15 of which only get to play. Now explain to me the benefits of that to either the players, the clubs involved, or the county.

Damned if you do, damned if you don’t me thinks. The reality is by the time they get to Senior each individual club will only be left with a handful of players each no matter what they do.

If it is the case that there is excessive numbers in Tullamore, then we should look at that too and if the volume is there, maybe the co board should look at developing another town club. However, for reasons outlined earlier, ie all the clubs wrapping into the town (Shamrocks, Clodiagh Gaels, Cappincur, Durrow, Ballinamere etc), I am not sure there is room for another club in the town itself.

I’ve heard of a number of instances in recent years where players have been poached from those smaller clubs by Tullamore.

And for the record, I was delighted to see Ferbane beat Tullamore in minor final and that their work and effort was rewarded with A minor championship. They obviously worked hard over the years, kept their numbers in this group high through development years and the club will reap the benefits.

Posted: **Mon Oct 21, 2024 1:22 pm**

Right, so the madness of a busy weekend of county finals has subsided, and there's a chance to revisit this topic properly. And I think there's no harm in stripping away a lot of the hyperbole and exaggeration, because there is a lot of that going on.

The starting point here has to be some level of acceptance on what reality is. By that I mean the indisputable facts from which all discussion needs to be based. And it is indisputable that Tullamore picks from a much bigger population than any other club in Offaly, or indeed that any other combination at underage level.

Nobody is disputing the fact that the rates of player recruitment and retention that could be deemed successful are very, very different when you are dealing with children that are non-Irish born, versus Irish-born without a family GAA tradition, versus Irish born with a GAA tradition. The first of those three categories may not even know that gaelic football and hurling exist, the last of the three categories will actively look for their nearest club to bring their child, even if no-one from the club ever comes near their home or their school.

HOWEVER, when you start using completely made up and grossly exaggerated numbers like saying the GAA population of Tullamore is 10-15% of the overall population, then you lose the right to be taken seriously. That number would be low if we were talking about the very heart of Dublin's north inner city, or the most hardcore unionist towns of the north, the likes of Bangor, Carrickfergus etc. Under no circumstances does it apply to any town on this island beyond that.

And to be honest Jimbob, there were other aspects of your posts that were equally daft. Just the same as there is no way that Na Fianna, or St. Vincent's, or any other combination team have any sort of advantage over Tullamore, it is equally daft to say that they might have any sort of advantage over Edenderry, or even Clara.

Another gem which drove me up the wall is this.

......than there is in Tullamore where there are many other sporting options.

I am sick to the back teeth of this trope that somebody living in a town has this glittering array of options for their sports and extracurricular activities, while ten minutes down the road is meant to be the equivalent of living on Inis Mór or Valentia Island in the 1970s, where the options are gaelic football, or contemplating life while staring out to sea in a wool jumper. Or maybe sitting still and growing a beard at age 12.

Occasionally you have a community that as a whole, have latched onto a particular sport, much like Limerick city is synonymous with rugby. But here's the thing - the only rugby community near where I live right now is Creggs, which is a two-pub village on the Galway Roscommon border. There is no rugby club in Roscommon Town, by contrast.

I've moved into a very rural area, and for reasons I've never quite understood, there is a massive badminton tradition here. This area has had several people compete for national titles in badminton, and most of the children at least try out the sport. And rural kids have just as much access to swimming, soccer, athletics, golf, and everything else. All modern kids are the same - they have their parents on the road seven days a week at one activity or another. The only difference in towns is that the parents don't have to drive as far, usually.

Also, this...

Some of the amalgamation sides could have well over 40 U13s, 15 of which only get to play.

My experience is that a combination team, if they have those sort of numbers, is MORE likely to put out a B team than a Tullamore or an Edenderry, not less. Now if there are actual instances and examples that go against this, I'm open to hearing about them, but to me this is both intuitive and logical - in order for a combination team to thrive, the composite clubs have to buy into the idea. And to take the St. Manchan's example, if I'm Doon and I have ten players going into a St. Manchan's U-15 panel, and there are 40 players altogether - then if that group just fields one team, then chances are five or six or my ten are getting no football, and I BADLY need those lads to be playing ball. I'm perfectly okay with the best five lads playing with the A team and the weaker five playing B, but I don't have the playing numbers to lose half my U-15s over the course of a year. Straight away, I'll be on the phone to Erin Rovers to see if I can't resurrect DER Gaels.

Also, there is this lazy idea out there too that if a combination can field an A and a B team, they should be able to break up into composite parts. Let's imagine for the moment that we're talking about St. Broughan's, who have 45 players. Loads, right? Sure, unless it's 15 for each of the three clubs, then none of them could function as a standalone.

Let's say Ród Óg (Rhode/St. Brigid's/Clonmore) have 45, but it's 30 Rhode, 11 Croghan and 4 Clonmore. How do you divide that? Let's say it's St. Manchan's, and the makeup is Tubber 16, Ballycumber 15, Doon 7, Erin Rovers 6. You could just about make that work, but then you have to put one of either Doon or Erin Rovers with Tubber, which geographically, is a long way from ideal, since they don't go to school together, they're not that close to each other, and there's no historic link.

(I understand here that Kinnitty and Lusmagh sometimes play together which has a lot of the same geographic issues, but I'd wager both clubs would agree that's not ideal either).

Finally, just to fish a red herring out of the pond: the boundaries are where they are. Yes, Tullamore and their neighbours have fallen out with a few clubs over players in the past, but they're not unique in that, and the GAA rules are there to deal with those situations. That has nothing to do with this topic.

So now that I've done the rebuttal bit, onto the main topic, which is the idea that a second club in the town of Tullamore might be the right thing to do. Let's park for a moment the practicalities of making that happen, since that wouldn't be easy, at all, but let's look at the bigger picture.

There are two perspectives to consider, and as it happens, they're kind of in conflict with each other.

The first is the idea that kids are being lost to the GAA in Tullamore, because the club is not able to serve that size of a community. Perhaps perversely, it was a lot easier to make this argument when Tullamore weren't dominant, because then it was clearly the case that the club was underachieving. Now they are clearly doing a fine job of coaching, they are keeping two teams going most of the way up along the line, their hurling teams are competitive too, and all of this is a good thing, and exactly as it should be.

Nonetheless, that doesn't mean that Tullamore are immune from being accountable in terms of demographics. The numbers Jimbob has used in this thread are off the wall so I'm not going to come back at them, but no rational person would disagree that Tullamore is not going to have the same recruitment and retention rates as we see in places like Lusmagh, Erin Rovers, Seir Kieran, Croghan, Coolderry etc.. Of course they will be held to a different standard.

And absolutely, rural clubs, smaller town clubs and combination teams need to be held accountable too. Daingean have come under fire before, there's serious scope for improvement in Edenderry, Birr and Crinkill have turned the corner but probably could be better, and I've had people with knowledge of these things tell me that by the same yardstick, St. Rynagh's should be getting more out of the town of Banagher too. And the real elephant in the room is the Offaly side of the River Barrow in Portarlington. The issue of kids going across to play with Port instead of playing with Gracefield is one of the biggest issues facing Offaly GAA right now, and it's notable that the biggest enrolment of boys in Offaly by some distance is in St. Patrick's. That school should be a top, top priority for this county.

But what we can say in all of these cases, and in Tullamore too, is that Offaly GAA is not well-served by an attitude of "don't look at us, look at them over there, they're the real problem!". As a county, we've enjoyed most of our success because we haven't bought into the underdog mindset, but because we've generally said that it doesn't matter, we'll take on the bigger counties anyway. I've loved that particular aspect of Michael Duignan's leadership actually - he'll acknowledge we're a smaller county, but he never looks for sympathy or uses it as an excuse, and that feeds through to players.

And to bring that spirit back to our clubs, it's important that we don't let a mindset prevail where we decide that Tullamore are too big, therefore they are unbeatable. It's up to every club to look after themselves, but also to be accountable to themselves, and not to look across at everything that they have in O'Brien Park and just get despondent.

But this leads us to the second perspective, which is that of competitiveness. Much like Dublin on the national front, there is the issue that when the unit with the big population advantage gets its act together, then they set the bar at a level that with the best will in the world, 80-90% of other clubs can't reach.

And while in the context of Leinster, Tullamore aren't way out of kilter (for example, this Leinster championship will have Portarlington, St. Loman's, Naas, Cuala, Dunshaughlin, there's no minnows in there), Offaly's primary focus always has to be the health of the local scene here in the Faithful County. I'd much prefer a thriving, competitive club scene at home, even if it meant we never had another club in a Leinster senior final.

And much like the Dubs, there is an element of it that is cyclical (albeit the Dubs are coming to the end of their cycle, and the age profile of Tullamore would say they're just at the start of theirs) but unlike a lot of people, I'm not getting carried away by this idea that we'll go back to normal when Cluxton, McCaffrey, Fitzsimons, Kilkenny, McCarthy etc all move on. I think there is a structural and a financial imbalance there that should be levelled off in as much as is possible.

That's why I don't think Kilcormac-Killoughey's situation in hurling is the same. K-K is a large rural area with a ferocious hurling tradition and a decent population, but there is nothing that they're doing right now that at least seven or eight other hurling clubs couldn't hope to replicate in the long run. Also, their remarkable feat in putting out five adult teams shows that their focus is still exactly where it should be - giving games to players, and keeping huge numbers involved in the club. Tullamore fielding four teams is decent though, they won't and shouldn't be criticised for that just because K-K are a machine.

But even if all that is the case, then I still think we're a long way off the nuclear option of trying to create a Garrycastle/Athlone situation. But that doesn't mean that it isn't something that should be monitored - which is why I found the deflection and misdirection in this thread to be very disappointing.

Posted: **Mon Oct 21, 2024 3:40 pm**

So, here is a genuine question that fits into this thread as much as any other. I hear a lot about West Offaly and South Offaly areas of the county in particular, and also North Offaly - but usually as a catch-all term. But I am never really sure what areas of Offaly we really have and what clubs are a part of each area:

This is a genuine effort to get to the bottom of it. Thoughts?

South Offaly- basically Birr and below. It brings in Drumcullen and Kinnitty clubs too (I am not entirely sure if they are technically further north, but they feel like they are 'South' Offaly).
Now, here is where it gets complicated. I first started hearing about South Offaly as a child in the 80s/90s. Back then it was always 'hurling is played in South Offaly', so I always just assumed that Rynaghs/Lusmagh were a part of South Offaly. However, now that I am older and have looked at a map, it is clear that they are really in West Offaly. Was it just lazy categorization back in the day to say 'South Offaly'? Did people in West Offaly cringe when these clubs got lumped in with the South? Do they feel South for Hurling, West for Football?
My belief is that the South is a line from Birr/Drumcullen and down.

West Offaly - Includes Lusmagh, Rynaghs as stated above, and everything north of that including Erin Rovers, Doon, Ferbane, Belmont. Does Ballycumber count as West Offaly (probably?). What about Tubber? Surely that must be North?

And the big question in the room is, where does K/K fit into this? They can't be west, can't be south, can't be north, can they? Do they need their own category?
Is it simpler to say that they north/south line is different than the one I drew earlier? Does it really go from Banagher to the Blue Ball and then down, instead? So more like a venn diagram where you can be in the south and in the west at the same time, perhaps?

Is the North really anything above that line above Blue Ball? Is East the same as the North? or do you also have 'The North' which covers anything from Clara to Tullamore to Killeigh to Rhode to Edenderry, but then also a sub-category within that of 'East Offaly' for clubs like Walsh Island, Portarlington?

Ultimately it doesn't matter, but it also does matter.

Posted: **Mon Oct 21, 2024 4:42 pm**

I asked my AI-powered assistant to summarize Lone Shark's post from this morning. Man, AI is good:

Key Points:

Tullamore's Population Advantage: Tullamore GAA draws from a significantly larger population than other Offaly clubs, which can influence player recruitment and retention rates.
GAA Participation Rates: The rates of GAA participation vary based on factors like a child's Irish heritage, family tradition, and exposure to the sport.
Exaggerated Claims: Claims about Tullamore's GAA population being 10-15% of the overall population are exaggerated and misleading.
Combination Teams: While combination teams can provide opportunities for more players, they also face challenges like balancing player representation and team cohesion.
Rural Clubs and Sporting Options: Rural clubs and towns offer a variety of sporting options, including badminton, swimming, soccer, athletics, and golf.
Second Club in Tullamore: The idea of creating a second club in Tullamore is explored, considering both the potential benefits and challenges.
Accountability: All clubs, including Tullamore, should be held accountable for their performance and development, regardless of their size or population.
Competitiveness: The article emphasizes the importance of maintaining a competitive club scene in Offaly, while recognizing the challenges posed by larger clubs like Tullamore.
Future Outlook: The article concludes by discussing the need for ongoing monitoring and evaluation of the situation to determine if a second club in Tullamore would be beneficial for the overall health of Offaly GAA.

Posted: **Mon Oct 21, 2024 4:46 pm**

llkj wrote: ↑Mon Oct 21, 2024 3:40 pm So, here is a genuine question that fits into this thread as much as any other. I hear a lot about West Offaly and South Offaly areas of the county in particular, and also North Offaly - but usually as a catch-all term. But I am never really sure what areas of Offaly we really have and what clubs are a part of each area:

This is a genuine effort to get to the bottom of it. Thoughts?

South Offaly- basically Birr and below. It brings in Drumcullen and Kinnitty clubs too (I am not entirely sure if they are technically further north, but they feel like they are 'South' Offaly).
Now, here is where it gets complicated. I first started hearing about South Offaly as a child in the 80s/90s. Back then it was always 'hurling is played in South Offaly', so I always just assumed that Rynaghs/Lusmagh were a part of South Offaly. However, now that I am older and have looked at a map, it is clear that they are really in West Offaly. Was it just lazy categorization back in the day to say 'South Offaly'? Did people in West Offaly cringe when these clubs got lumped in with the South? Do they feel South for Hurling, West for Football?
My belief is that the South is a line from Birr/Drumcullen and down.

West Offaly - Includes Lusmagh, Rynaghs as stated above, and everything north of that including Erin Rovers, Doon, Ferbane, Belmont. Does Ballycumber count as West Offaly (probably?). What about Tubber? Surely that must be North?

And the big question in the room is, where does K/K fit into this? They can't be west, can't be south, can't be north, can they? Do they need their own category?
Is it simpler to say that they north/south line is different than the one I drew earlier? Does it really go from Banagher to the Blue Ball and then down, instead? So more like a venn diagram where you can be in the south and in the west at the same time, perhaps?

Is the North really anything above that line above Blue Ball? Is East the same as the North? or do you also have 'The North' which covers anything from Clara to Tullamore to Killeigh to Rhode to Edenderry, but then also a sub-category within that of 'East Offaly' for clubs like Walsh Island, Portarlington?

Ultimately it doesn't matter, but it also does matter.

I’m not gonna lie I found this post quite amusing not least because it’s the type of pointless issue I’d spend hours pouring over but for what’s it’s worth I’d say anything below Drumcullen is considered South Offaly.

Rynaghs would certainly be considered in West Offaly, it was probably just the fact that most good hurling clubs came from the South so Rynaghs was thrown in with them.

That’s probably the same with KK now, you’d almost automatically lump them in as South Offaly because they’ve a good hurling team but they’d be more West than South.

Tubber would certainly be North, Ballycumber is a hard one to call but given it’s part of the Tullamore LEA and not the Birr LEA I’d probably lean more towards North than West.

The North isn’t just anything above the Blue Ball, Ferbane would not be considered in North Offaly.

The East isn’t the same as the North. I’d consider most of the areas in the Tullamore LEA as the North (even though Tullamore is more Southern on a national map than Doon) and most in the Edenderry LEA as East (even though Rhode or Edenderry are more Northern on a national map than Tullamore)

To simplify it I’d say:
South = Birr LEA from Drumcullen downwards.
West = Birr LEA from Drumcullen upwards.
North = Tullamore LEA.
East = Edenderry LEA.

If you wanted to get properly accurate about it then sub-categories are the way to go eg. Edenderry would be in the North-East, Ballycumber would be in the North-West.

Posted: **Mon Oct 21, 2024 5:15 pm**

FlyOnTheWall wrote: ↑Mon Oct 21, 2024 4:46 pm I’m not gonna lie I found this post quite amusing not least because it’s the type of pointless issue I’d spend hours pouring over...

I mean, what else does this forum exist for! Better to express it here than keep it bottled up.

Regarding your other points, I feel it is probably a good summary to say that there are 4 main areas. I don't believe that it ever gets broken down into anything smaller than that. For example, if a team wins a championship you'd never hear 'that is great for north east offaly', but you'd hear back in the day 'it is good to have players from north offaly geting on a hurling county squad' - even if the player was from Clara, Ballinamere/Durrow, Edenderry. Gracefield would be considered North Offaly from a hurling perspective, but probably east offaly in football.

Summary - it is subjective!

Posted: **Mon Oct 21, 2024 5:26 pm**

llkj wrote: ↑Mon Oct 21, 2024 5:15 pm
FlyOnTheWall wrote: ↑Mon Oct 21, 2024 4:46 pm I’m not gonna lie I found this post quite amusing not least because it’s the type of pointless issue I’d spend hours pouring over...
I mean, what else does this forum exist for! Better to express it here than keep it bottled up.

Regarding your other points, I feel it is probably a good summary to say that there are 4 main areas. I don't believe that it ever gets broken down into anything smaller than that. For example, if a team wins a championship you'd never hear 'that is great for north east offaly', but you'd hear back in the day 'it is good to have players from north offaly geting on a hurling county squad' - even if the player was from Clara, Ballinamere/Durrow, Edenderry. Gracefield would be considered North Offaly from a hurling perspective, but probably east offaly in football.

Summary - it is subjective!

Because there are so many Offaly hurlers from the South and so few players from the Edenderry LEA it’s probably easier to dub anybody who does make as from “The North” but it’s different in football and there are so many clubs in that neck of the woods that tarring them all as being from the North is probably a bit meaningless.

Posted: **Mon Oct 21, 2024 9:16 pm**

That’s probably the same with KK now, you’d almost automatically lump them in as South Offaly because they’ve a good hurling team but they’d be more West than South.

They are the hardest one to categorise for sure. You could make an argument for them being South, West, and North. But then Killoughey backs up to Killurin and county Laois too, which is definitely not South, West or north.

Interestingly, if you were holding a regional hurling tournament at the moment and wanted it to mean something you would probably go with:

South Offaly - Shinrone, BK, SK, Birr, Coolderry, Crinkle, CR
Mid Offaly - Drum, K-K, Kinnitty, Shamrocks,
West Offaly - Rynaghs, Brosna Gaels, Lusmagh, Belmont
North Offaly - Gracefield, Edenderry, Tullamore, Ballinamere, Clara, CG, Edenderry,

Football wise it would be different:

South - I'd put K-K and Kinnitty in here (but they still would need more strength to compete)
East - Edenderry, Rhode Parish teams, Gracefield, Raheen, Ballinagar, CG, Broghan's teams.
West - Ferbane, Croghan, Brosna Gaels teams, Shannonbridge, Shamrocks
North - Tullamore, Durrow, Clara, Daingean Parish teams

Posted: **Mon Oct 21, 2024 9:25 pm**

llkj wrote: ↑Mon Oct 21, 2024 9:16 pm
That’s probably the same with KK now, you’d almost automatically lump them in as South Offaly because they’ve a good hurling team but they’d be more West than South.
They are the hardest one to categorise for sure. You could make an argument for them being South, West, and North. But then Killoughey backs up to Killurin and county Laois too, which is definitely not South, West or north.

Interestingly, if you were holding a regional hurling tournament at the moment and wanted it to mean something you would probably go with:

South Offaly - Shinrone, BK, SK, Birr, Coolderry, Crinkle, CR
Mid Offaly - Drum, K-K, Kinnitty, Shamrocks,
West Offaly - Rynaghs, Brosna Gaels, Lusmagh, Belmont
North Offaly - Gracefield, Edenderry, Tullamore, Ballinamere, Clara, CG, Edenderry,

Football wise it would be different:

South - I'd put K-K and Kinnitty in here (but they still would need more strength to compete)
East - Edenderry, Rhode Parish teams, Gracefield, Raheen, Ballinagar, CG, Broghan's teams.
West - Ferbane, Croghan, Brosna Gaels teams, Shannonbridge, Shamrocks
North - Tullamore, Durrow, Clara, Daingean Parish teams

Maybe we should create a new area for the likes of Killoughey and christen it “Central Offaly” or “Offaly Central”

Posted: **Tue Oct 22, 2024 1:57 am**

Nobody is disputing the fact that the rates of player recruitment and retention that could be deemed successful are very, very different when you are dealing with children that are non-Irish born, versus Irish-born without a family GAA tradition, versus Irish born with a GAA tradition.

All fine and well, but when I was making that exact point, it was deemed to be racist. No need for heavy handed approach!

HOWEVER, when you start using completely made up and grossly exaggerated numbers like saying the GAA population of Tullamore is 10-15% of the overall population, then you lose the right to be taken seriously.

Id still say I am not far off the mark. The interest in Tullamore in GAA isn't exactly huge. The Central Statistic Office Census 2022 returns indicate that Tullamore town has an overall population of 15,598, of which just under 12,000 (11,957) live in the Tullamore Urban Area. So 3600 approx are in Ballinamere/Durrow area and maybe a couple out towards Ballydaly direction that stay within Tullamore parish area which would be about right.

And to be honest Jimbob, there were other aspects of your posts that were equally daft. Just the same as there is no way that Na Fianna, or St. Vincent's, or any other combination team have any sort of advantage over Tullamore, it is equally daft to say that they might have any sort of advantage over Edenderry, or even Clara.

Only yesterday, a man from Clara said to me that Clara are really struggling to compete with the big amalgamations at underage. Maybe he is wrong too.

Do you know how many club members Tullamore have. 15% would suggest about 2,000 poeple are GAA people in Tullamore. I wouldnt say that is a million miles off the mark. 4160 people attended senior football final in 2023 between Tullamore and ferbane. I'd assume Ferbane brought 1000 or so, maybe 1000 neutrals or more and maybe 2000 or so from Tullamore. That's about the figures I said so maybe I am not as daft as you suggest. Or is it OK to use that 4160 figure as a reasonable guage.

This one actually makes me laugh

The numbers Jimbob has used in this thread are off the wall

The numbers I refer to are the ones that you provided!!! (Ref: https://www.schooldays.ie/primary-schoo ... ary-offaly)

Another gem which drove me up the wall is this.
......than there is in Tullamore where there are many other sporting options.

It just gets better. So how about these. Tullamore have clubs in soccer, rugby, basketball, rowing, kayaking, badminton, golf, pitch and putt, tennis, gymnastics, swimming, athletics, MMA, Karate, Taekwondo, two boxing clubs, all of which cater for young people and there is a good chunk of kids in the town who don't play any sport. And I am probably leaving out a sport or two there.

I am sick to the back teeth of this trope that somebody living in a town has this glittering array of options for their sports and extracurricular activities, while ten minutes down the road is meant to be the equivalent of living on Inis Mór or Valentia Island in the 1970s, where the options are gaelic football, or contemplating life while staring out to sea in a wool jumper. Or maybe sitting still and growing a beard at age 12.

Be sick all you like, there are significant volume of other options outside GAA that ensures plenty of town based kids never venture near the GAA for sporting activity. It isn't like this in rural areas. There are certain families in Tullamore that are GAA to the core - like any where else and there are a lot of others who will take it or leave it. Outside that there is a huge swaythe of poeple with little or no interest in it. You might find that hard to credit but the Tullamore membership will say that, as will the volume of Tullamore people that went to the county final.

Some of the amalgamation sides could have well over 40 U13s, 15 of which only get to play.
My experience is that a combination team, if they have those sort of numbers, is MORE likely to put out a B team than a Tullamore or an Edenderry, not less.

Can you back this up with actual facts or is your experience a fact

Now if there are actual instances and examples that go against this, I'm open to hearing about them, but to me this is both intuitive and logical - in order for a combination team to thrive, the composite clubs have to buy into the idea. And to take the St. Manchan's example, if I'm Doon and I have ten players going into a St. Manchan's U-15 panel, and there are 40 players altogether - then if that group just fields one team, then chances are five or six or my ten are getting no football, and I BADLY need those lads to be playing ball. I'm perfectly okay with the best five lads playing with the A team and the weaker five playing B, but I don't have the playing numbers to lose half my U-15s over the course of a year. Straight away, I'll be on the phone to Erin Rovers to see if I can't resurrect DER Gaels.

Note I refer to 4 team super amalgamations - and wasnt fully referring to St Manchans as there are bigger ones than Manchans. Those phone calls are not being made and there were a couple of age grades where the likes of DER and Ballycumber Tubber or 2 of those 4 could link as you describe even if they have not previously been together. Sure none of the amalgamations existed before they were amalgamated. That argument is not a legitimate argument.

Also, there is this lazy idea out there too that if a combination can field an A and a B team, they should be able to break up into composite parts. Let's imagine for the moment that we're talking about St. Broughan's, who have 45 players. Loads, right? Sure, unless it's 15 for each of the three clubs, then none of them could function as a standalone.

In my reference, I was not referring to St Broughans at all (I said 4 teams) who are sometimes low in numbers in certain clubs. I referred to 4 team amalgamations if you read it back.
Same applies to Rod Og.

(I understand here that Kinnitty and Lusmagh sometimes play together which has a lot of the same geographic issues, but I'd wager both clubs would agree that's not ideal either).

But even if all that is the case, then I still think we're a long way off the nuclear option of trying to create a Garrycastle/Athlone situation. But that doesn't mean that it isn't something that should be monitored - which is why I found the deflection and misdirection in this thread to be very disappointing.

To be honest, I dont think Athlone example is comparable. There is about 23000 in Athlone or 8000 extra on Tullamore to cover 2 football and one hurling club. Tullamore has 15500 to cover Tullamore and Ballinamere and Durrow which is two senior hurling and two senior football clubs from that 15500 or so. Mullingar is also a lot bigger than Tullamore and has two town football clubs and one hurling club from approx 23000. Hope these figures are ok to use......

Posted: **Tue Oct 22, 2024 4:24 am**

I find the attempts to define NORTH & SOUTH amusing but the terms not originate in GAA when for many years, up to the Mid-Sixties there were subsidiary Boards called The North Offaly Board and The South Offaly Board and they were not totally based on a north/south divide. For example Doon in the North West corner of the county were in South while the 2 other clubs in the parish, Ballycumber and ER were in North, Those sub boards were abolished around 1970....

Posted: **Tue Oct 22, 2024 2:36 pm**

llkj wrote: ↑Mon Oct 21, 2024 4:42 pm I asked my AI-powered assistant to summarize Lone Shark's post from this morning. Man, AI is good:

Please don't tell my editors that this is an option.

Posted: **Tue Oct 22, 2024 2:37 pm**

Thanks for that information, Ryot. I was not aware that 2 subsidiary boards existed.

When looking at a map of Offaly yesterday and trying to pick what clubs might play in what area team it really stood out for me the problem that we have with the lack of opportunity to play either football or hurling in certain areas of the county. It is really bad that all clubs aren't offering both football and hurling starting at nursery ages and working up to go games levels. It needs to start in the clubs. Schools too, but the club is the primary unit of the GAA. It doesn't take big coaching skills or particular knowledge of the game to at least introduce each sport to kids and give them a chance to try it out.

Posted: **Tue Oct 22, 2024 6:34 pm**

Indeed. The border wasn't based on parish boundaries then either. Killoughey was in the north division, while Kilcormac was in the south. And so north winners Killoughey played south winners Kilcormac in 1964's Junior hurling final.

ryot wrote: ↑Tue Oct 22, 2024 4:24 am I find the attempts to define NORTH & SOUTH amusing but the terms not originate in GAA when for many years, up to the Mid-Sixties there were subsidiary Boards called The North Offaly Board and The South Offaly Board and they were not totally based on a north/south divide. For example Doon in the North West corner of the county were in South while the 2 other clubs in the parish, Ballycumber and ER were in North, Those sub boards were abolished around 1970....

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