Hurling to return to St Brendan's Park

[Buck Face]

LS - It is very presumptuous but more importantly incorrect to claim that people didn’t expect the County Finals in Tullamore to get ‘such big crowds’ as you call them. It was no surprise to see an improved attendance for the first final in 2007 when you consider the pairings involved, the large support KK get when going well and even the fact that it was after 3 repetitive finals in Birr. All clearly expressed by Kinnityman on here –

kinnittyman on Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:33 pm
Well lads all roads lead to Tullamore(!!!!!) for the county hurling final on sundat and i think there could be a huge crowd at it. And the reason is thats its a novel pairing and the underdogs are in with a genuine chance of taking the honours.

The only notable spike in attendance figures was in ’09 and that was hardly a surprise considering Tullamore were in it.

When you talk about hurling in Tullamore gaining ‘such traction’ then what are you referring to? If the benefits are so great then surely the same point could be made for moving the football finals to Birr? That seems like nonsense to me.

You seem very quick to split this it into a Birr v Tullamore argument. This is not about the two clubs and I think you will find that a lot of people outside of Birr are also passionate about the fact that the initial move was, as minuted, temporary.

I am also uncomfortable with the directives from Croke Park but when they are administered then they have to be adhered to. For instance I’m very frustrated that it was Leinster Council that fixed the Offaly Westmeath minor game for OCP this year against the wishes of the management and players. (Perhaps even wrongly so as it was fixed for OCP on the basis that it was the county grounds when according to the undisputed directive referred to by Birr, the game should automatically have been fixed for Birr. How frustrating is that?).

I am also an Offaly GAA citizen without any vested interest and I have yet to see a credible argument on the monetary side with regard to moving hurling permanently to Tullamore. These are harsh times but there is no point in enjoying a comfortable feast now while the fields outside are fallow.

It’s great to hear, from your reliable source, that Birr have cleared their debts. But the point remains, following on from this weeks County Board meeting, it is not up to Birr to make a case for anything. Apart from minutes or directives or anything else, at the time hurling was moved to OCP people, in good faith, took it to be temporary. Something illustrated at the time by one of our regular contributors –

Plain of the Herbs on Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:09 pm
As a result of the unavoidable overrun of development work on the pitch at St. Brendan’s Park, this year’s Offaly senior hurling final will have an unusual setting, that of the new O’Connor Park.


The case needs to be made for ‘moving hurling permanently to Tullamore’ if that is what people want. I have yet to see anyone make a credible case for doing so.

[Plain of the Herbs]

Woah there, horsey. How you make out that "an unusual setting" implies 'temporary' is something you'll have to reconcile yourself.

OCP was an 'unusual setting' because it was the first Final to be held there for 54 years.

It’s great to hear, from your reliable source, that Birr have cleared their debts. But the point remains, following on from this weeks County Board meeting, it is not up to Birr to make a case for anything. Apart from minutes or directives or anything else, at the time hurling was moved to OCP people, in good faith, took it to be temporary. Something illustrated at the time by one of our regular contributors –

Plain of the Herbs on Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:09 pm
As a result of the unavoidable overrun of development work on the pitch at St. Brendan’s Park, this year’s Offaly senior hurling final will have an unusual setting, that of the new O’Connor Park.

[Plain of the Herbs]

Does anyone else think that it was bad practice by the Minor hurling team management to pen a letter to the County Board begging for the Westmeath match to be held in Birr?

The angle I’m coming from is that they knew, by then, that the match was fixed for Tullamore and the only effect the demand had was that it introduced negative vibes among the team at a time when a positive slant from the management might have been better advised.

I do think the management set a scene of “we’re not going to win this match in Tullamore” and in doing so sent out a team which was beaten before the start, and avoidably so at that. Thoughts?

As for the playing surface in SBP, I’d be very interested in how it coped with yesterday evening’s substantial rainfall.

[Lone Shark]

Fair arguments all. To rebut:

(1) I accept that the county finals in Tullamore got good pairings, as opposed to years of Birr playing opponents who were 5/1 or 6/1 to beat them. However even if every single person in the K/K catchment area went to some of those games, it wouldn't have explained the large crowds that went. There were big "on the day" crowds going, and while I wouldn't like to speculate on the reason, the fact remains that we now have an open hurling championship that anyone could win and no matter who reaches the 2011 county final, there should be novelty at play and another big crowd should result. The last few finals have proved at the very least that Tullamore is no barrier to big crowds, and when there is an issue of Birr club potentially taking 15% of what could be the biggest gate in Offaly GAA all year, then of course that is a factor.

(2) If you read through my posts you would see that I would be very much in favour of bringing football to Birr, I would strongly believe that at least one of our NFL games next year should be played there, along with perhaps the O'Byrne Cup or maybe a county semi final, subject to the same revenue considerations that apply across the board. I do think that there has been an improvement in North Offaly hurling in recent years, seen in clubs such as Tullamore, Brosna Gaels and Ballinamere, and I remain of the view that Edenderry hurling has a lot to contribute to Offaly if they got a bit more help than they currently do. I'm not necessarily talking about the county finals by themselves, but yes, I think that we need to do more to send out the message that both GAA sports belong to all the people of Offaly, not just the "traditional" areas.

(3) I'm not splitting this into a Birr vs Tullamore argument, and I'm well aware that there are other people with vested interests. The point is that this is exactly like any other debate - there are clubs on both sides, and then there is the swing vote in the middle, and whoever captures that swing vote will win.

(4) Finally, as to your point that it is not up to Birr to make a case, it is on this aspect that I disagree fundamentally and most passionately. This should not be decided by minutes, directives, rulebook, or any of that stuff - this should be a carefully thought out, logical decision making process, based on what's best for Offaly GAA and taking in all factors. I accept wholeheartedly that there are pros and cons to both sides, and I'm trying my bloody damnedest to pull the reins in on the debate on here since this site is actually quite influential now, and I think that good reasoned arguments on here will find their way onto the floor of the county board meetings, and that's as it should be. By saying that the rules state that the transfer to Tullamore was temporary and now that Birr is all fixed up the games should revert is to miss the point entirely. There is a debate going on, and it's great that there is - now it's up to the advocates of both sides to go and win it. If I'm in charge of a senior hurling or football team, I want to win my championship on the field of play, I don't want to win it by a technicality and getting the other side thrown out. If you or anyone else feels that Birr is the best place for the majority of Offaly hurling events to take place, then argue for it and make a case - don't ignore the key points of the other side, and certainly don't just sit back and say that the rules are on your side, it's up to Tullamore to make their case for the move.

Tullamore's case is simple - it costs less, and right now, like it or not, that's a very strong argument. There are other points, but that's a big one. Claiming that it's "not credible" as you do simply suggests that you're not somebody living in the real world where paying the bills is a huge problem for us, and the funny thing about this is that in every other aspect you strike me as someone who actually talks a lot of sense and could easily sway me round to your way of thinking.


I can't find the actual quote, but coming from an argumentative family, as I definitely do, I always took on board a line from Benjamin Disraeli which I will now paraphrase - it's easy to take on the weak points in an opponent's argument, but if you want to win, you will instead take on his strongest points, the pillars upon which he builds his case. If you take any of these down, the whole edifice comes crumbling around him.

[Lone Shark]

Does anyone else think that it was bad practice by the Minor hurling team management to pen a letter to the County Board begging for the Westmeath match to be held in Birr?

The angle I’m coming from is that they knew, by then, that the match was fixed for Tullamore and the only effect the demand had was that it introduced negative vibes among the team at a time when a positive slant from the management might have been better advised.

I do think the management set a scene of “we’re not going to win this match in Tullamore” and in doing so sent out a team which was beaten before the start, and avoidably so at that. Thoughts?

As for the playing surface in SBP, I’d be very interested in how it coped with yesterday evening’s substantial rainfall.

Absolutely. Whatever agenda that served, it did not help the minors one jot and that has been said directly to me by one of them.

Excellent point too about the surface - there must have been training or a match of some sort on there last night, anyone able to shed any light?

[Bord na Mona man]

The next time Offaly hurlers get a home championship game against teams like Dublin, Cork, Wexford, Limerick, Tipperary, or Waterford, they won't be played at a 6,000 capacity Birr ground.

If Offaly hurl more league games in Birr, they might gain a better edge over visiting teams who mightn't cope with the local factors. However come championship 'home advantage' will count for less when they are required to play in a less familiar O'Connor Park.

Which would people rather? Spooking teams in Birr in February league games, or being more accustomed than the opposition to playing in Tullamore when we get a home championship game.

[GreatDayForTheParish]

Tullamore's case is simple - it costs less

How?

[townman]

The next time Offaly hurlers get a home championship game against teams like Dublin, Cork, Wexford, Limerick, Tipperary, or Waterford, they won't be played at a 6,000 capacity Birr ground.

If Offaly hurl more league games in Birr, they might gain a better edge over visiting teams who mightn't cope with the local factors. However come championship 'home advantage' will count for less when they are required to play in a less familiar O'Connor Park.

Which would people rather? Spooking teams in Birr in February league games, or being more accustomed than the opposition to playing in Tullamore when we get a home championship game.

offaly had two games together last year waterford football limerick hurling, and you would see more at a ringing of a pig than was at the games
you think offaly were a well supported team the way ye go on. even some of the league games last year moystown would have held the crowd that was there.

plus Birr was well able to hold county finals and crowds when offaly hurling was at the top in the 80's and 90's.

[GreatDayForTheParish]

The next time Offaly hurlers get a home championship game against teams like Dublin, Cork, Wexford, Limerick, Tipperary, or Waterford, they won't be played at a 6,000 capacity Birr ground.

If Offaly hurl more league games in Birr, they might gain a better edge over visiting teams who mightn't cope with the local factors. However come championship 'home advantage' will count for less when they are required to play in a less familiar O'Connor Park.

Which would people rather? Spooking teams in Birr in February league games, or being more accustomed than the opposition to playing in Tullamore when we get a home championship game.

Splitting the league games between Birr and Tullamore would compromise that.

Conversely is it good for Offaly hurling, the morale of the players, to be playing league games in an empty concrete expanse as has happened for the last couple of years? People (rightly or wrongly) don't give a damn about this team at the moment. Interest is at an all time low with championship support pitiful. Perhaps its time to get it back.

[Buck Face]

POTH – There was no ‘begging’ letter sent to the County Board. It is my understanding that an initial request was made to play the game in Birr prior to any fixture. The letter was expressing their disappointment at not being granted their wishes. In fact there was very little about the letter until the debacle at OCP brought it to light so it's impact on the day of the match was negligible.

Anyway….back to the point of the thread -

LS - It is reasonable to assume that Tullamore is not a barrier to big crowds but no more than that. I also agree that it is correct to try to promote both codes outside the traditional areas and should be given more thought. However, as an advocate of the benefits to playing games in certain areas then you must also see the benefits of playing games in traditional areas also?

I am not ignoring any ‘key’ points. As for the 'how is the pitch after the rain?' Let's see how will we solve that one...oh I know, if the pitch is unplayable then move the match to OCP. What a novel idea.

So far the only reason that I’m getting here for permanently moving hurling to Tullamore is monetary gain and I still say this is not credible. My understanding of it is that a maximum of 6,000 euro would go to Birr GAA for hosting the County Finals and when one considers that it costs well over 1,000,000 (or a thousand thousands as some people would put it tese days) a year to run Offaly GAA then I still say it is not credible to claim this as a strong reason for playing the Final in OCP. If this is the ‘big one’ then there is no need to debate further. I’m sure Benjamin would agree.

BNMona - Birr will have a capacity of over 12,000 so there are no problems there either.

[Lone Shark]

Okay, I'm arguing this badly.

This is not about the county final, alone. This is about the vast bulk of Offaly hurling matches, the expenses incurred in opening the ground for training etc, which when added up, would come to a hell of a lot more than 6,000. The relevant figure is not the €1.1m that Offaly GAA and O'Connor Park together turn over each year, since a lot of that is internal transfers and accounting. A lot more of it is fixed income and expenditure that we can do nothing to control. There is only a fraction of that budget that Offaly has a control over, and with an €85k deficit last year, there are very few ways in which that gap can be bridged. If we take this year's games as a sample year, here's the numbers:

Fixture - estimated attendance - lost revenue for holding it in Birr

Offaly SHC final - 7000 - €6000
Offaly SHC Semis - 3000 - €4500
2 * Offaly SHC Quarters (let's say one double header in St B's Park as opposed to Tullamore) - 1500 - €2000
4 * NHL home games - Combined 5000 @ €15 - €11250
MHC vs Westmeath - 1000 - €1500

There's €25,250 in that little pot, not to mention costs for training etc, Walsh Cup, Intermediate finals, Under 21 finals, and all the other games that could fall into the mix. Now it's all very well to argue that this is a tiny share of the pot, but it's still not money that can be thrown away.



Now that I've covered that side of it, let's revert to the hurling aspects:

(1) The pitch needs to prove itself over a winter - it's not as simple as moving the game to Tullamore on the morning of the match. If there is an NHL game scheduled for Birr on a March or February Sunday afternoon, then it's highly possible that the county board would use that opportunity to let the Senior/minor/under 21 footballers play a challenge match or have a training session in Tullamore. It completely defeats the purpose of having the games in Birr if Tullamore has to be kept idle just in case it rains.

(2) I agree there are benefits to playing games everywhere, in strong areas and weak. Hence why I believe they should be split, not given to one or the other.

(3) I'm still not completely convinced what the players want. On the one hand I know some of them signed the famous letter that was sent to the Examiner and the clubs, however I also know that one individual had it signed for him, and that he himself has no strong feelings on the matter. There may be others, but that kind of trickery doesn't fill me with confidence. That was exacerbated when we had the nonsense of the minor manager trying to claim that 17 year old hurlers would be more familiar with a ground that was closed for four years. I'm just not willing to take at face value the idea that players want it until I see a lot more evidence. That's not to say I think that the default setting should be play games in Tullamore either, merely that it has to be properly ascertained.

(4) On the one hand, people say that what support there is gets lost in O'Connor Park, because it's capacity is so big. On the other hand, we have people saying that Birr's new capacity is to be 12,000, which is not a whole lot less. In other words a crowd of 500 would be lost in either one. This might be an argument to move games to Kinnitty or Banagher, but I can't see how it's an argument to move games to Birr.

[Bord na Mona man]

The next time Offaly hurlers get a home championship game against teams like Dublin, Cork, Wexford, Limerick, Tipperary, or Waterford, they won't be played at a 6,000 capacity Birr ground.

If Offaly hurl more league games in Birr, they might gain a better edge over visiting teams who mightn't cope with the local factors. However come championship 'home advantage' will count for less when they are required to play in a less familiar O'Connor Park.

Which would people rather? Spooking teams in Birr in February league games, or being more accustomed than the opposition to playing in Tullamore when we get a home championship game.

offaly had two games together last year waterford football limerick hurling, and you would see more at a ringing of a pig than was at the games

The attendance that night was 6800, Birr holds 6,000. If Limerick hadn't been on strike, it would have been a larger crowd.

[puzzled]

'BnMm' when the terracing is finished in Birr the capacity will be well able to hold any match that Offaly hurlers would be involved in!

The senior league semi-final was in there last week between K/K and Shinrone and the town end terrace is all thats left to be finished and I for one cant wait to get hurling games back in Birr!

[Buck Face]

LS - It is completely misleading to suggest that the vast bulk of Offaly hurling matches are currently played in OCP nor would they ever be in Birr either. As for the cost of training, only around 20% of training sessions are actually held in OCP, something that can continue on into the future anyway. The figure of 1.1 million is relevant as it is hard expenditure. And one figure that we actually have under our control is the 15% figure that we ourselves grant to grounds that facilitate games. If this figure is too high and unaffordable then it should be changed but it certainly should not be there as a deterrent from playing matches in areas that would be of benefit to our games.

Can you explain where you got your figures from for the NHL as I believe there is a different system in place for allocating gate receipts that I am not familiar with?

As for the condition of the pitch – the pitch is in excellent condition. If there is a problem with drainage in bad weather it will be evident long before the dramatic scenario that you so colourfully paint. Bad weather is one thing we can depend on.

I am confused when on the one hand you go to great lengths explaining the unaffordable costs incurred by moving matches out of Tullamore yet on the other you are in favour of semi-finals and even NFL games being played in Birr. I guess you just haven’t made your mind up as to what is best quite yet.

Only two players signed the 'famous' letter. Brian Carroll was signing as the player’s rep. and the other was Shane Dooley. The player’s rep’s signature would carry the most weight to me, regardless of whether or not the individual was too pushed either way, he was signing on behalf of the players. I’m not sure how much more evidence you need. Perhaps Joe Bergin in the Indo saying that the players wanted to return to Birr as it is their home might help satisfy you.

Did the minor management actually claim that the player’s would be more familiar with Birr? Did you see a copy of the letter or are you getting your wires crossed like POTH earlier? It is not relevant to the issue at hand but I’m curious to know.

As for the atmosphere, it’s not a point that I made but while I’m at it – It’s not a case of simply comparing capacities to come up with how far you are from the field or the atmosphere created. I always get the impression of being a lot nearer to the pitch from the stand in Birr. I don’t know the figure off hand but I’d be confident that there is a lot less seating in Birr and as a result, due to terracing, the crowd would be nearer to the field and also terraces create a better atmosphere.

[Bord na Mona man]

'BnMm' when the terracing is finished in Birr the capacity will be well able to hold any match that Offaly hurlers would be involved in!

The senior league semi-final was in there last week between K/K and Shinrone and the town end terrace is all thats left to be finished and I for one cant wait to get hurling games back in Birr!

I'm sure a 10,000 would be an improvement. But I still doubt Birr will get any games that could potentially hover towards 10k territory.

For example, last year Offaly played Galway in (neutral) Portlaoise in the Leinster championship replay and the official attendance was 12,457.
Should Birr be the home venue if Offaly were hypothetically hosting the Tribesmen next year?
6,000 might show up on a wet day, but 12k might show up on a sunny day. Sensible fixing would suggest yourself greater head room.

13,888 punters paid in to see Offaly play Tipperary last year.
Would you bring Tipp in Birr if we got them at home, potentially lock out a couple of thousand and stretching the facilities to the maximum?