Changes to playing rules

[Lone Shark]

This is another idea for a thread that has been shamelessly robbed from GAAboard, but here goes anyway....

We're still a bit away from end of year and AGM's and all that malarkey, but even so it's a significant enough year in that 2010 is one of those every five year occasions when the actual playing rules of football and hurling can be changed. Now I would fall into the category of those who believe that the playing rules are largely fine, if they were enforced as they stand, but even so there are a few tweaks I'd like to make. Do fall in with your own.

(1) Steps - any time a player is whistled after taking five or six steps, the constant cry is that the call is "harsh". I'd like to see them move it to five steps instead of four, and then enforce it consistently.
(2) Charging - very much a hurling problem rather than a football one. If I'm defending a player running at me, God knows I have few enough options at my disposal in terms of how to dispossess or even stop him. If I put my arms out, he dips his head and runs into an arm making it look like a high tackle, alternatively he'll grab it on the way by and pull me down, going for the free. Shoulder to shoulder is impossible, so at least I have to be able to force him wide - I'd like to see a rule whereby if the defender puts his arms out, the attacker has to actually go around him - not unlike basketball. If the defender then moves his arms, the free goes in - but not if he simply holds his ground. In hurling, it would be as much about stopping players essentially pushing the man in front off, either with the hurl out in front or else in a rugby style hand off.
(3) Time keeping. Now obviously I'm wary of proposing a solution which can't be enforced at all levels, but I'd love to see a stopped clock system, whereby all injuries, substitutions, lengthy searches for a football/sliothar for kicking/pucking out etc. are all cause for a stopped clock, meaning that time wasting becomes all but impossible. It has become a blight on the game and badly needs addressing - not to mention all those games where there are a plethora of stoppages, but referees simply cannot countenance anything longer than three minutes, even if six or seven would be warranted.
(4) Something has to be done about holding on to the ball after a free has been given away. I understand that a lot of the time the issue is that the player in possession barely gets time to hear the whistle and he has lads descending on him like flies looking to take away possession, but it should be the case where if the team awarded the free does not physically touch the player or the ball after the free has been given and he hasn't dropped the ball on the spot inside four seconds, then it's either 13m forward OR an instant free from the 45/65 if the offence takes place further back. However the key here is that the player who has been penalised must not be accosted by a variety of opponents, he must be given a second or two to get his bearings.
(5) All "professional" fouls from outside the 20m line to result in a 20m free. All professional fouls from inside that distance, even if out in the corner, to result in a penalty. Obviously it's a tricky judgement call and the benefit of the doubt in terms of the deliberate nature of the foul should be given to the defender, but if it's clear cut then I see no problem. We've all had the team talk telling us that if you have to foul, do - and that shouldn't happen.
(6) In football, I'd like to see a lot less punishment for the mistimed shoulder charge (provided the elbow stays down) and a lot more punishment for sliding tackles on a loose ball and the like. Sliding tackles are leg breakers and are more dangerous than half the things that see red cards given.
(7) I think something needs to be done with the hurling handpass, it's too close to a throw and it's overused. Perhaps going as far as saying that you can't throw and strike with the same hand is a bit draconian, but something has to be done.

Having said all that, I still think the rules of the game are generally fine if stuff like the tackle, striking and so on are refereed properly, however that's all too often not the case.

What say ye the jury?



After that

[bracknaghboy]

Good Topic.

1.) I'd worry that it just wouldn't get enforced. Instead of 5 lads would run 12 and complain that refs are not allowing the extra step. Its a difficult one this. I'd leave it.

2.) Arms out by defenders I think would limit further the space that forwards have to work with. Its getting tighter out there as it is. I understand the defenders concerns but I'd leave it as it is.

3.) Agreed.


4.) Totally agree something needs to be done. Holding on to the ball then throwing it 5 yards away after giving away a free. I'd like to see lads getting ticked for it. Nothing worse than it.

5.) Difficult to enforce....possibly lead to constant arguing over was it or wasn't it a professional foul. These things worry me because if the ref feels he has made a mistake or is under pressure from players/supporters he tends to give a softish free to the other team. I'd worry that your proposal could lead to "evening up" by refs.

6.) Agreed.


7.) I don't think the hurling handpass is overused. Its more often used when lads are on the ground and without an option. I'd leave it alone. My thoughts on the football handpass are well documented on this forum. I still believe it is crippling our game and more and more young lads are growing up with the handpass as a bigger part of their game than kicking. I would ban it altogether or restrict it to no more than 1 handpass and then the ball must be kicked. I seen a couple weeks back in the Examiners excellent monday GAA pull out where they give a breakdown of all the plays by teams....kick, handpass etc and the handpass stats make for sorry reading. Hundreds of handpasses per game.

[Veteran]

1. I agree with BB on this one, practically impossible to make a change that would have a positive impact.

2. The Charging issue is one for debate. It has become a major problem in both Hurling and Football, looking at some of the Northern football teams in particular the tactic has been to go into the tackle and then try and turn to offload the ball. The reasoning behind it is that it often takes at least two defensive players out of the game and frees up space for the other forwards. The key for the defender is that he keeps his arms out, if he closes his arms around the attacker then it is a free. In fairness, the good refs (of which there are all too few) understand this and will award a free for over-carrying or charging. But you're right when you say that all too often it is missed and defenders are penalised for standing their ground.

3. Agree 100%

4. I think one of the problems here is that you are allowed to throw the ball to the referee if a free has been awarded against you. This slows the game down dramatically and penalises the attcking team. The rule should state that the ball must be released immediately or the ball is moved forward. I like the idea of giving a 65/45 as it would eradicate the problem all over the pitch.

5. Define a professional foul????

6. Agreed.

7. The handpass in hurling has become more of a throw, certainly in the two semi finals. I agree, something has to be done. Not sure of I totally agree with BB on the football handpass. I read a good article this week about Meath returning to 'bogman' football in that they kick the ball long into their forwards asap. The article continued to explain how Kerry and Tyrone have adopted more of a kicking game and how they are benfiting from it. The teams that have class forwards can kick it early and long, for others they have little choice but to keep posession and try to work a score.

Great topic LS but one last point. The rules in general are not too bad when applied properly, look at the job that Brian McEnaney has done on a number of games this year - good refereeing means good matches. The major issue is that we don't have enough top quality referees.

[Lone Shark]

Just to come back on those two responses....

(1) But surely if the rule was changed with the emphasis being on it now being enforced, then that would make life easier? Now people carrying the ball expect "leeway" in terms of being allowed an extra step or two and generally they get it - but ambiguity is not a referee's friend generally and it leads to inconsistency.

(2) Space might be at a premium but right now the game struggles due to the lack of a tackle. It certainly doesn't help a back when an opponent can barrel straight into you and you end up putting your hands up over your head to demonstrate that you aren't fouling as in soccer. It's a farce and I'd like to see a defender being allowed to hold his ground.

(5) I agree it's difficult to enforce and that's why I say the benefit of the doubt should be with the defender, however we've all seen rugby-style tackles when a defender who is beaten simply decides that he can't let the man go any further - or out the field when teams are trying to stop momentum being built up. Right now these tactics work, so my feeling is we need to do something so as to sanction such fouls heavily and thus kill off the practice. In terms of definition, I'm talking about the foul where there is no intention to play the ball, simply an attempt to stop the progression of the man in possession at all costs.

(7) In hurling, I think the problem is not the handpass so much as the thrown handpass and how difficult it is to tell the difference. As I said, I'm not sure what I'd like to see here but I do think that 50% of handpasses now are dubious and that's not good. In football, I've no problem with teams using the handpass well, and after all if the kicking game was more effective then that's what would be used. The problem is that the short pass can be difficult to defend with players bulldozing their way out of defence. Perhaps the second point above could cut out some of that.


Regarding veteran's final point, of course more and better referees are the ideal, however it's a tough station and I don't envy many of the referees out there. Everything takes place at speed and it takes time to get the hang of it. players are becoming very clever at deceiving refs and that's why I'd like to see more tools at the disposal of referees and honest players. Of course a lot of the time it's self-fulfilling as well. Any players in Offaly will tell you that when Brian Gavin takes the whistle, there is no messing at all because they know he'll be in control. Contrast that with some of the others out there who try to stay away from confrontation and as a result end up losing the run of the game entirely.

[Veteran]

Just to clarify the 'better refereeing' issue.

The job undertaken by the referee is, in most cases, doomed to failure as he/she will never be able to please everybody. My issue is not with the referee's that are out there trying their best, but with the lack of real support that they recieve from the GAA in general.

The points outlined referring to changes in the rules are all valid and in most cases we agree that changes are required, however without proper enforcement, existing or new rules make no odds. We saw earlier in the year that when the new rules were applied properly (Dublin-Tyrone league game) it made for a better match, but when referees up and down the country started to apply them differently then the new rules floundered.

Why is it that when the games have become more professional in most aspects, that the training, support, mentoring and guidance of referees continues to be overlooked?

[Bord na Mona man]

A few possible changes

Things worth considering.
- An automatic 45/65 metre free in front of the goals after every 5 aggressive fouls accumulated.
- Netting and rigging attached to the back of each goal posts to help detect points (Even if it only went half way up the post)
- Forwards only allowed into the square after the ball has touched the ground or an opposition player in there.
- Clearly defined striking action for the hurling handpass. On release of the ball, the ball must achieve a clearance of 10cm from the striking hand before it can be played.

Another one in hurling that needs to be enforced is players throwing the ball a few yards ahead of them, letting it bounce and collecting it again to get out of trouble

As mentioned both hurling and football have very much adopted the rugby style of taking the ball into contact and off-loading to a spare man.
Who do you penalise though when the man in possessions barrels into towards opponent though in order to draw him into a tackle and create an overlap?
Is he charging, or do you deem the defender tackling him illegally if he meets him with a physical challenge?

The reason that hurling teams like Portumna, Newtownshandrum, Cork, Limerick (a couple of years ago) adopted this off-loading style of game is because refs clearly favour the man in possession.
Add in the tolerance for throw style handpasses and you allow an effective style of hurling evolve on the fringes of legality.

[The Magpie]

1) I don't think a change is needed. Just enforce the rule. Guys cop on fairly quickly in a game when a referee is being strict on over-carrying. As an aside, most of the club games I've watched this year have featured a lot of over-carrying - in only a fraction of cases has a free been awarded.

2) A big big problem for sure, but I can't see this solution working. Worse again, I don't have a suggestion

3) Another big problem. A senior football team (in Offaly) that shall remain unnamed have been serious time-wasting offenders over the last couple of years, mostly by encroaching on the pitch, en-mass, when the slightest minor injury occurs. Perhaps I've mixed two issues here? Anyway, if referees themselves could be a little more militant on the watch and perhaps a second time-keeper was appointed on a per-game basis, something could improve here.

And while we're at it, keep all of these water-carrying, pretend selectors, selectors, managers, etc off the pitch (playing area).

4) Great idea. But the root of this problem is discipline - something that's more difficult to solve.

5) Are you serious

The job of a referee is one that boils down to too many subjective decisions already. Don't add to this

6) Agree fully.

7) Agree again. The hurling hand-pass has all but disappeared. The ball is thrown now.

[Efan]

1. Steps/Over carrying … Consistency is a killer here , I agree 100%. I think it’s a valid suggested solution and anything is better than the inconsistent interpretation we have at present. If a player is bearing in on goal he can take up to 8 and get away with it if he is in the act of scoring (when was the lat time you saw a goal disallowed for over carrying) however if a defender is bottled up having his arms “played” (i.e. slapped down/fouled) as he tries to get the ball out he get’s pulled … consistency.

2) Charging is a big hurling problem but changing this behavior will be difficult as it had evolved as a consistent feature of the game. I think your solution is worth a look as on paper it appears to be better than the status co.

3) No brainer. It beggars belief sometimes when you have seen 6 substitutions in a game and the referee allows “at least 1 min” WTF. Sadly injuries are also beginning to be used as a means now of taking momentum from the opposition. The soccer solution of having to leave the field for attention and missing a passage of play maybe is the call here but doing this by using the rugby methodology of the time added being equal to the time lost. Club enforcement indeed could be craic alright but it works in club rugby.

4) Players automatically try and interfere in some way with the taking of quick free kicks. From holding on to the ball to walking casually across the path of the free taker. As long as you are not opting for a shot on goal I have no problem with a player having to take a free from within 5 meters of where the foul was committed. This gives him the option of going around the blocking player. I would also go so far as to say it’s an automatic yellow card for throwing the ball away.

5) A definition of a professional foul is hard alright. I would leave the foul areas as are but I think if a player is intentionally fouled in an obvious goal scoring position inside the large parallelogram then it should be a straight red card. (I would prefer this to be 10 mins in the sin bin but until this is an option red is better than just yellow) Goals have become all too infrequent in especially Gaelic football and when a forward in both codes gets inside the cover the instinct is always to foul rather than try to defend. The rules should favor the more creative side of the game in the scoring position.

6) Agree completely.

7) I disagree that the hand pass is overused but I do agree that there are a lot of throws masquerading as hand passes of late. Players will throw the ball blind side of the referee consistently.

Some other changes that I would also like to see considered ….

1) Better use of the officials on the field of play. In GAA I occasionally here people talking about 2 refs … there are 7 officials on the field of play. Umpires at intercounty level should be linked to the 3rd official so when they need to get the refs attention they can do so easily. When a foul occurs blind side of the ref the linesman should have the ability to raise his flag and award the free. This only happens occasionally but at the speed the ball can move around the field in hurling this is a must. I realize that this will be an “inter county only rule” but this is the fastest pace of the game. It’s ridiculous to see a team gaining an advantage through a foul and maybe getting a score where the linesman saw the foul and could not “give it”.

2) Throw ins in hurling: We are loosing the “clash of the ash” from the game. Players at throw ins must be seen to be making a “clear stinking action towards the ball” as opposed to putting there arse in and trying to rise the it. Throw ins to clear a stalemate usually cause the same situation to occur again. Also all throw ins near the side line should be thrown in at least 5-7 meters from the sideline so the ball can break into open play.

3) Players “falling” beside the ball to protect it. If a player falls to the ground. He must be seen to be making a clear attempt to get to his feet. If not it’s a free against him. I would include goal keepers in this.

[bracknaghboy]

Another good one I think.

Straight yellow card for any player (would usually be the goalkeeper in fairness) trying to influence, abuse or bully an umpire as he is trying to make a call on a score. Yes they get it wrong now and then but umpires aren't helped by fellas screaming and swearing their heads off at them. Goalkeepers waving balls wide would also receive a yellow. Davey Fitz used to act as a 3rd umpire at all times....he'd wave balls wide that went over the black spot .