Hurlers might be reprieved from relegation after all

[Lone Shark]

This is taken from the Indo, no idea what he's basing it on or anything. It'll be some boost for the incoming manager if id does work out though.


THE proposed new structure for the 2008 Allianz Hurling Leagues is likely to be torn down before it's even fully erected.


That could mean a reprieve for Offaly, Antrim and Laois, all of whom were angry over the decision to drop them down to Division Two while nine counties competed in the top flight.

Offaly manager John McIntyre led the campaign in an attempt to increase the number of counties in Division One, arguing that it would be counter-productive to have a nine-team elite in the top flight while counties like Offaly, Laois and Antrim campaigned at a lower level.

It now looks as if there will be a major re-think following the emergence of timing difficulties with the proposed nine-team Division One programme.

It would take nine weeks to run off the 'home' and 'away' schedule followed by two more to complete the semi-finals and finals and possibly one more to decide on relegation issues.

That's being seen as an excessively lengthy programme which would leave little room for other activity in the spring and also cut down on the lead-in time to the championship.

The GAA is to re-examine the entire fixtures programme at all levels over the next month and Pat Daly, the Head of Games, admitted that a re-think on the NHL format was a possibility.

"The way it's set up for 2008 would take up an awful lot of weekends to run off," he said. "There's no appetite to start the leagues before Christmas, so it has to be run off in spring but there's a limit to the amount of time available.

"With counties in divisions one and two due to get four home and four away games, followed by semi-finals and a final, the schedule would be very full even without Fitzgibbon Cup games.

"We would also have a lot of double rounds of football and hurling league games, so if we were to get a few weekends of bad weather, we could have total chaos with fixtures.

"There's also the need to keep a decent gap between the end of the league and the start of the championship, while clubs have to be looked after too so that they aren't totally squeezed by all the inter-county activity," said Daly.

Division One of the NHL was comprised of twelve teams, divided into two sections, up to this year but, on a recommendation of the Hurling Development Committee, was cut to nine for 2008, much to the annoyance of Offaly, Laois and Antrim.

Soundings are being taken at provincial and central level and all the indications so far are that the proposed system will be amended to a format which can be run off more quickly.

It's part of an overall review of the fixtures schedule which has come in for criticism in recent years as club players, in particular, complain that they are being ignored amid an ever-increasing inter-county scene.

While the hurling format may be adjusted, the new football league based on four merit-based divisions as decided by placings from earlier this year will proceed as planned in 2008.

[Plain of the Herbs]

I often wondered when they were going to play all the matches as well as a weekend for club semi finals and the inter-varsity weekend. Looks like they're only considering that themselves now.

It's one thing having pipe dreams of a nine county super league but putting it into practice is quite another.

[Fido]

This is a bit ridiculous really. When this idea was first proposed, apart from the fact that county delegates like our own didn't seem to think about the possible consequences for their own counties, didn't those who actually came up with and proposed the idea not have to have all the pros and cons weighed up in order to sell it to Congress? Did they not have to provide details of how it would work? It's looking increasingly ill thought out to me, which is madness when you consider the long-term repercussions demotion to Div 2 could have.
It maddens me to see how much tinkering has gone on in both the football and hurling league and championship formats when it's obvious that no grand plan is behind it all. No philosophy, no clear objectives, just short term, counterproductive meddling. What were the benefits outlined to these changes in the first place? Obviously there's no forceful or cohesive thought going into something as fundamental as competition formats if they can be scuppered as soon as someone realises the logistics are unmanageable.
The worst thing about this change for the sake of change to the formats is that real change is necessary. In both football and hurling, league and championship structures should be rebuilt to the benefit of the games and the counties. This is particularly important in hurling, where there is a constant threat of a diminishing pool of competetive counties. In another thread (System Failure) I put forward one possible solution, which Lone Shark made an interesting adaptation to. Both were merely exercises in thinking out loud, but there was at least thinking involved, and an underlying philosophy of attempting to increase games and chances for growth for all, while at the same time preserving some traditional aspects of the Hurling Championship and providing a mechanism for the best teams getting to the business end every year. Is it too much to ask the GAA powers-that-be to do the same?

[Lone Shark]

Is it too much to ask the GAA powers-that-be to do the same?

I think Cyril Farrell hit the nail on the head one night when he said that we can't have it both ways - we love the tribalism, the passion, the complete commitment to your club and county, but still we expect passionate club and countymen to check that at the door of the council and committee meetings all across Ireland. The truth is that you can talk forever about the relative abilities of different players, but to take the obvious example, Cork have Frank Murphy in their corner and he's worth at least Ben O'Connor and Nicholas Murphy combined.

Having said that, I know it's a bit pathetic pointing out the problem without actually coming up with some idea how to rectify it - and I don't. To quote Kent Brockman - "I've said it before and I'll say it again, Democracy simply doesn't work". Well I'm very proud of the GAA as a democracy, but all too often it means that the least offensive guys make the most progress. Look at the upcoming Director-General position. Leaving out the fact that he's hardly going to leave his well paid job with d'brudder, Peter Quinn would be widely acknowledged to be the best man for the job - yet if it was an elected position he'd have no chance because he would have made too many enemies.

The problem with putting in place a committee to come up with the best structure for hurling is that they will serve their counties first, or in the case of people like Donie Nealon or Christy Cooney, their province. Until you get away from that it's very different to rectify.

Personally I'd like to see the hurling league run on the same basis as the football league - divisions 1 through 4. We'd still be in division 2 this year, but we'd be in there with Antrim, Limerick and Laois, and with two up and two down every year (no playoffs) division 2 wouldn't be a wasteland since it would have a couple of big teams every year. For those mid tier counties like Laois, Westmeath, Down etc. it would be the right balance. Some games against the big boys to test yourselves, but still not getting whupped week in week out. Finally it would throw up some novel pairings that are all too rare in the current structure, since McCarthy/Ring/Rackard teams tend to be in divisions 1,2, and 3 and thus meet each other the whole time. Local derbies like Armagh vs Down, Offaly vs Westmeath and Carlow vs Wexford could be great for the game if we ever gave them a chance of happening more often.

[the bare biffo]

If a nine team division is unmanageable then instead of artificial 1A and 1B why don't they go for a straight six team div 1 and 2

Div 1 = KK, CK, WD, Tipp, LK, CE
Div 2 = GY, WX, Dub, OY, Ant, LS

At least the cream would be in the Div 1 as they should be and Div 2 would still be very competitive.

????

[Muck Savage]

I'd say seven teams in each div would be the right number, put Galway up one and drag Down, Westmeath and maybe Carlow into Div 2. Now the weaker teams are getting exposed to Dub, OY, WX while still having a chance to stay in Div 2. No point in having them bounce up and down so every two years a team like Carlow who could make a breakthrough is only in a competitive league once every two years.

[Lone Shark]

The problem is seven teams as opposed to six adds an extra two weeks onto the schedule. At that stage it wouldn't cost them anything to move it up to eight.

I still think that we shouldn't be customising the leage to fit certain teams, be they stronger or weaker. I'd say pick a league structure that works and then encourage the weaker counties to develop within that by whatever means possible.

I agree that maybe having divisions 1 through 6, with 6/6/6/5/5/5 teams in each down along might be the way to go. (Maybe even have division 5 east and west so as to try to keep it as local as possible and not have Louth trekking across the country to play Donegal when Monaghan are a division below or whatever)

If you were to bring that in next year then you'd have to bump up Galway and Wexford on that list - one would assume it would have to be based on league placings this year. I don't think Limerick and Clare would accept it without a fight though.

[turk]

I'd have four eight team divisions, two up - two down, worked well in the 80s and 90s.

[the bare biffo]

To be honest its a joke that they are now considering abandoning their new structure (if they are) at this stage.

The only way they could pull back now is to play 2008 leagues on the same basis as 2007 with whatever alternative structure is decided on not coming into effect till 2009.

All a bit chaotic. As LS suggested, decide on 6/6/6/5/5 RegionA/5 RegionB
Straight forward promotion and relegation then just stick with that.

Changing league structures in itself will not promote hurling.